Jump to content



Sign up for a free account to remove the pop-up ads

Signing up for an account is fast and free. As a member you can join in the conversation, enter contests and remove the pop-up ads that guests get. Click here to create your free account.

Photo
- - - - -

Pioneer DV-563A Review


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
586 replies to this topic

#41 of 587 OFFLINE   Paul.S

Paul.S

    Producer



  • 3,814 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 29 2000
  • Real Name:Paul
  • LocationHollywood, California

Posted July 20 2003 - 10:45 PM

*Lewis Besze:

Quote:
The first Uni. player from Pioneer did the conversion also,I forgott the model number,it was a couple of years ago,even though this was a very expensive player.
I think you're referring to 2001's DV-AX10. That $5,500 player did some kind of DSD-to-PCM conversion?

*Sam Scamardo:

Thx for the link--*very* interesting. The plot thickens. It seems therefore that one of the questions for an HTFer electrical engineer reading this is, what's the qualitative difference between the SADACs found in Sony's (and others'?) SACD players and the Cirrus and Burr Brown PCM DACs "which use seperate (sic) SACD inputs" mentioned in Allen White's post?

More info on the Burr Brown PCM1730 chip Allen White mentions: http://focus.ti.com/....Number=PCM1730

More info on the Cirrus CS4397 chip White mentions: http://www.cirrus.co...detail/P34.html

The latter mentions DSD specifically; the former just mentions that an SACD player is a possible application for the chip.

Comments anyone? (To riff on DavidK's post #28, "Bueller? . . . Bueller?" Posted Image )

*David Scott:

Yes, 563A + ICBM = economical way to make sure SACD/DVD-A low end audio performance is what it should be IF the 563A does not do bass management. I don't think it has been definitively determined one way or the other, either via print press review or an HTFer using Chesky test disc or other means. (BGL, please chime in if you have found out any more on this.) As I understand the issue, depending upon how the disc was recorded/encoded, your LFE performance will simply not be what it should if you do not have bass management (and do not have full range speakers all around).

*Carlo:

Quote:
And when they finally iron out this thing in a year or two I'll be able to upgrade then.
Given hopes for competing universal players at similar price points, I would think that it will be sooner than 18-months-to-two-years that the DSD-->PCM conversion issue--if indeed it is an issue (see Sam's Audio Asylum link above)--gets resolved. I certainly wouldn't expect it to take any longer to be resolved/for "true" DSD to trickle down from high-end units than it took for the true progressive versus upconverted progressive scan issue that we had when prog scan DVD-V players first came out to get resolved [which was less than a year (?)].

Paul

#42 of 587 OFFLINE   Brajesh Upadhyay

Brajesh Upadhyay

    Supporting Actor



  • 791 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 11 1998

Posted July 21 2003 - 12:52 AM

I finally got around to testing for the chroma bug. Like some people have already reported, there's no trace of it on the 563A. I tested the "Toy Story" menu as shown in the Secrets' article, plus the "Monsters, Inc." DVD.
Home Theater Addict

#43 of 587 OFFLINE   Brian L

Brian L

    Screenwriter



  • 2,882 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 08 1998

Posted July 21 2003 - 02:17 AM

Quote:
(BGL, please chime in if you have found out any more on this.)


No real news from the 45A front.

Steve_AS had contacted Chesky, and done some additional tests, and IIRC he said that it appears that there is an issue with the Checky Ultimate DVD, but I can not confirm that.

I need to revisit a few areas, particularly the SACD of Bowie's Heathen (looks like ALL low bass is on the .1 channel, and if you have no sub, the 45A did not seem to redirect it if your rig is all large, no sub).

I am also going to try to determine which of my DVD-A's is also heavy in the LFE channel, and which are not. That would allow one to determine if the BM works in both directions (large and no sub or Small + Sub).

FWIW, Hotel California (the title track) seemed to have a fair amount fo bass in the main channels.

For additional info on that, I started a thread here, but got very little discussion http://www.hometheat....&highlight=LFE

BGL

#44 of 587 OFFLINE   WesleyHester

WesleyHester

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 144 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 14 2002
  • Real Name:John Hester
  • LocationSelma, AL

Posted July 21 2003 - 02:45 AM

Everyone must understand that the DSD to PCM conversion is what really makes this player cheaper more than anything else about it. DSD to PCM is key here. Reading DSD literatue on the net and what comes with the discs, it all claims how different and better it is over PCM and here is a player that takes those "benefits" and transforms it back into what the SACD camp says is "inferior". DSD to PCM is NOT an innovation but more like a side-step.

**I still love this player and the sound of both DVD-Audio and SACDs (especially multichannel) from it. I love it more because I understand what is going on inside of it as well and accepted it for what it is.**

Another key point for any DVD-Audio, SACD or Universal player is ANALOG BASS MANAGEMENT (until the HDMI connection anyway). Higher priced players have it. If it is found that the 563A doesn't have it then it ISN'T really that great a value because instead of only paying $180 for a universal player, you'll end up spending $450+ instead (still less than a $1000 Denon or Yamaha true enough) to get it and an ICBM. It is extremely IMPORTANT to have proper bass management for DVD-Audio AND SACDs because each title can be engineered to either use the LFE Sub channel or NOT. They can be engineered to have the bass in the individual channels, LFE or both. Without proper bass management, any bass frequencies in the Front L/R, Center and Surround L/R will be lost on small speakers.

#45 of 587 OFFLINE   Carlo Medina

Carlo Medina

    Lead Actor



  • 9,753 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 31 1997

Posted July 21 2003 - 03:00 AM

Quote:
I certainly wouldn't expect it to take any longer to be resolved/for "true" DSD to trickle down from high-end units than it took for the true progressive versus upconverted progressive scan issue that we had when prog scan DVD-V players first came out to get resolved [which was less than a year (?)].
As someone who got into DVD in May of 1997 (L.A. was a test market) I can tell you it took a while for progressive to become affordable! Posted Image (and even longer to get it done right if you count the hometheaterhifi tests and the chroma error)

But I do get what you mean. Well, seeing as to how my cost will be a bit lower than MSRP, I really do think this can be considered a throwaway player for me. I'm sure there could possibly be another bump in the road (or two) between now and a true, affordable Uni player. I'd love to be proven wrong, but if not, then I can enjoy SACD now (albeit compromised, I won't know the difference) and upgrade later.

XBox Live: TheL1brarian (let's play Destiny on XB1)


#46 of 587 OFFLINE   Brian L

Brian L

    Screenwriter



  • 2,882 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 08 1998

Posted July 21 2003 - 03:15 AM

Quote:
Reading DSD literatue on the net and what comes with the discs, it all claims how different and better it is over PCM and here is a player that takes those "benefits" and transforms it back into what the SACD camp says is "inferior". DSD to PCM is NOT an innovation but more like a side-step.


I do not think that there are ANY conclusive studies that can claim clearly that SACD is superior to high bit rate PCM. Red book PCM yes, but hi rez PCM, no.

Both camps have their points, but unless someone comes out with software in both formats, sourced from the same elements, and which has not been doctored in any way during mastering, and then tested in a controlled way, then I would say there is no way to conclude that one format is better than the other.

I equate this to DD vs. DTS. It is clear to me that there are almost ALWAYS EQ differences between the two formats (when they exist on the same disc) such that any meaningful comparison is rendered impossible.

Please do not side track this into another endless and fruitless hi-rez PCM vs. SACD debate.

Quote:
Another key point for any DVD-Audio, SACD or Universal player is ANALOG BASS MANAGEMENT (until the HDMI connection anyway). Higher priced players have it.


I personally am more concerned about the functionality of BM, rather than how its performed.

Owning a 45A, I have wrestled with this, and did not fully realize the players potential in my rig until I bought an ICBM. That decision was based on requiring a different crossover slope and nothing else. It was only after users found the various other shortcomings of the players BM that the ICBM became even more valuable in my system.

I guess there will always be those that make purchasing decisions purely based on what they perceive is "under the hood". I like to think that there is more than one way to achieve a given level of performance.

At some point, I think you need to quit obsessing over how a device is designed, and focus on how its sounds to YOUR ears in your rig with your music.

That IS the bottom line, is it not?

Quote:
Another key point for any DVD-Audio, SACD or Universal player is ANALOG BASS MANAGEMENT (until the HDMI connection anyway).


Why should this matter? All a digital connection means is that you are moving the BM and TA from one place to another (OK, I will concede that you save a few cables worth of clutter in your equipment rack).

It can still be done correctly or not regardless of whether or not it is in a pre/pro, receiver, or in a player.

Every time I read a post begging for an affordable digital connection, all I can think of is the old adage that you should be careful what you ask for, or you just might get it.

What would you rather do? Replace a moderately priced uni-player because it has substandard BM and TA, or a considerably more expensive pre/pro or receiver for the same reason? My wallet knows the answer to that.

BGL

#47 of 587 OFFLINE   Carlo Medina

Carlo Medina

    Lead Actor



  • 9,753 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 31 1997

Posted July 21 2003 - 04:10 AM

Another thing about the DSD to hires PCM conversion (and any potential loss of signal quality).

For me only:

This probably won't mean too much, simply because I'm trying to get in on this cheap. So if I were to get a true SACD player, like the Sony 222ES, I'd have to get a 5.1 switcher (and I'd just get the Rat Shack switcher, not some multi-hundred dollar one) and that would introduce its own degradation in signal quality. My receiver only has one set of 5.1 inputs and I'm not about to try and upgrade that as well.

Wow, I'm really talking myself into this purchase! Posted Image

XBox Live: TheL1brarian (let's play Destiny on XB1)


#48 of 587 OFFLINE   Brian L

Brian L

    Screenwriter



  • 2,882 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 08 1998

Posted July 21 2003 - 04:26 AM

Quote:
This probably won't mean too much, simply because I'm trying to get in on this cheap. So if I were to get a true SACD player, like the Sony 222ES, I'd have to get a 5.1 switcher (and I'd just get the Rat Shack switcher, not some multi-hundred dollar one) and that would introduce its own degradation in signal quality. My receiver only has one set of 5.1 inputs and I'm not about to try and upgrade that as well.



Carlos,

Fear not. I think it is debateble whether or not you will suffer any signal degradation with a switcher.

Even John Kotches in another thread said that he has used one in his "normal guy" rig (I think that is how he described it), and did not hear anything bad.

I use a pair of MCM Electronics switch boxes (cheaper than Rat Shack, and better build quality), and I would challenge the most golden of ears to to identify if the switch is in or out of the signal path.

BGL

#49 of 587 OFFLINE   Carlo Medina

Carlo Medina

    Lead Actor



  • 9,753 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 31 1997

Posted July 21 2003 - 04:38 AM

Brian, can you point me to a link with info on the MCM switch box you are using? Or better, a place that sells them online?

Thanks!

XBox Live: TheL1brarian (let's play Destiny on XB1)


#50 of 587 OFFLINE   Brian L

Brian L

    Screenwriter



  • 2,882 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 08 1998

Posted July 21 2003 - 04:43 AM

http://mcm.newark.co....jsp?id=50-6195

It appears they have raised the price...a LOT!

I paid about $8 each. They are now almost double that, so RS will perhaps be cheaper.

That said, for what they are, the build quality is far better than RS, unless RS changed their design.

BGL

#51 of 587 OFFLINE   Jeff O.

Jeff O.

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 190 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 12 1999

Posted July 21 2003 - 09:27 AM

Thinking about a switcher. How about something like these stackable RCA connectors: stackable RCA That way you could leave them both plugged in and I assume it would work as long as both players aren't on at once. Any thoughts on whether this would work or not?

#52 of 587 OFFLINE   Carlo Medina

Carlo Medina

    Lead Actor



  • 9,753 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 31 1997

Posted July 21 2003 - 09:45 AM

Hmmm, that does look intriguing Jeff. Anybody familiar with the tech side of things wanna chime in and say if this is a good idea?

Bottom line though is that I'll prolly try it if I do go separate components - it's only like a $6 risk for 3 pairs...

XBox Live: TheL1brarian (let's play Destiny on XB1)


#53 of 587 OFFLINE   Brian L

Brian L

    Screenwriter



  • 2,882 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 08 1998

Posted July 21 2003 - 10:15 AM

I have never tried doing that, but for what its worth, you would want to be VERY careful not to have both players powered on at the same time.

While it is normally no problem to use Y Connectors for OUTPUTs, it is generally not advisable with INPUTs.

I would still go with the cheapest switch boxes you can find. I think the Rat Shack boxes are less than $10 each. For $20 you have a good system, with no fear of blowing anything up.

BGL

#54 of 587 OFFLINE   BeatCrazy

BeatCrazy

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 129 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 07 2002

Posted July 21 2003 - 10:41 AM

Wesley,

Whew, we have a lot of stuff to disagree on here:


Quote:
Everyone must understand that the DSD to PCM conversion is what really makes this player cheaper more than anything else about it. DSD to PCM is key here.


Why? Have you seen a parts material breakdown spec sheet on this model? Who's to say it's not more expensive to buy a chipset that coverts DSD to PCM rather than using the manner found in a DV45A?

Quote:
Another key point for any DVD-Audio, SACD or Universal player is ANALOG BASS MANAGEMENT (until the HDMI connection anyway).


Again, why? If you think that BM is the nirvana for getting the best sound out of a system, we need to re-evaluate things. Are you using super-tiny-micro speakers? I guarantee you will get better sound out of a well constructed properly engineered SACD player running full-range than an inexpensive model doing bass management. There's tons of ways BM can screw up your sound. Think many audiophiles with high-end SACD rigs use BM?

Quote:
It is extremely IMPORTANT to have proper bass management for DVD-Audio AND SACDs because each title can be engineered to either use the LFE Sub channel or NOT. They can be engineered to have the bass in the individual channels, LFE or both. Without proper bass management, any bass frequencies in the Front L/R, Center and Surround L/R will be lost on small speakers.


SACDs with channel distribution issues like these (a la Telarc) a few and far between. Evey MCH SACD player I've ever used or owned has provisions to get around a disc that uses the .1 track for other things besides bass. Why is the DV563A different?

Before you think that I'm slagging you or your player, please realize I'm not. I'm very interested in getting the DV563A. I bought my first SACD player in late 2000 and have been enjoying 3 different models since.

#55 of 587 OFFLINE   Walt N

Walt N

    Second Unit



  • 417 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 23 2001

Posted July 21 2003 - 10:58 AM

Thinking about a switcher. How about something like these stackable RCA connectors: stackable RCA That way you could leave them both plugged in and I assume it would work as long as both players aren't on at once. Any thoughts on whether this would work or not?


It seems like that's been tried here, but it didn't work because it reduced the input signal too much. You might try a seach and see exactly what they had to say, but I do recall that using switchboxes was the only practical option for using two decks.

#56 of 587 OFFLINE   Carlo Medina

Carlo Medina

    Lead Actor



  • 9,753 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 31 1997

Posted July 21 2003 - 11:34 AM

Quote:
Who's to say it's not more expensive to buy a chipset that coverts DSD to PCM rather than using the manner found in a DV45A?
Good point, wasn't there a post somewhere that said DACs were generally in the range of like $10? (again, I don't know, I just remember reading that and being surprised)
Quote:
There's tons of ways BM can screw up your sound
I wondered about this (though I don't have an answer), just because it's an extra layer of processing. And I'm soon going to move my C6s to the rear speakers (full towers) so I think BM won't be much of an issue for me.

XBox Live: TheL1brarian (let's play Destiny on XB1)


#57 of 587 OFFLINE   BeatCrazy

BeatCrazy

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 129 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 07 2002

Posted July 21 2003 - 11:48 AM

Carlo,

Quote:
I wondered about this (though I don't have an answer), just because it's an extra layer of processing.


BM can induce phase irregularities between the sub and main speakers, cause improper time delay, have inconsistant frequency rolloff characteristics that do not compliment the sub/sat combination, not to mention grossly improper frequency response due to incorrect sub volume or placement.

One could probably write a chapter on the subject given enough time....

#58 of 587 OFFLINE   Lewis Besze

Lewis Besze

    Producer



  • 3,134 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 28 1999

Posted July 21 2003 - 03:00 PM

Quote:
I think you're referring to 2001's DV-AX10. That $5,500 player did some kind of DSD-to-PCM conversion?
Yes!
http://www.audaud.co....uip2OCT01.html

#59 of 587 OFFLINE   WesleyHester

WesleyHester

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 144 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 14 2002
  • Real Name:John Hester
  • LocationSelma, AL

Posted July 22 2003 - 05:46 AM

The Yamaha DVD-S2300 and Denon DVD-2900 are more expensive for many reason, one of which is that they both have SEPERATE circuits for DVD-Audio and SACD and treat both differently based on everything I've read about them. DSD is different from PCM period. Converting DSD to PCM is not treating DSD and PCM seperately. Instead, the output path is combined into ONE. In theory that would result in LESS specialized components to use which in theory should result in lower cost if my logic is correct.

OF COURSE when anyone is refering to the importance of Analog Bass Management, it's not for those with all true full-range speakers with a player speaker setting to Large. If anyone doesn't have all full-range speakers then Analog Bass Management and especially the lack of it, is a VERY BIG ISSUE. Also, everyone should be clear on what FULL-RANGE SPEAKERS are. Even, if you do not have "super-tiny-micro speakers" and think you have "pretty big speakers" you'll still need analog bass management because few bookshelf and small tower speakers come close to being true full-range speakers that can handle deep bass like a true stand alone subwoofer. If you or anyone has all true full-range speakers then yes you don't have to be concerned with analog bass management and everything I have posted here is obviously not for you.

Discs that use the LFE channel are found more on DVD-Audio not SACD. I admit to limited knowledge of SACD though.

Sam Scamardo, all of the problems you say BM could be true. Now think about everyone who would have to use it because they lack true full range speakers to produce bass accurately! I'm having to use an Outlaw ICBM which I feel doesn't have any of the problems you describe. Forunately for me, I can still set the 563A to Large in the speaker setup.

HDMI will be digital and analog bass management will not be a concern. At CES it was also revealed that a $250 version player similar to the 563A will have HDMI.

Having said all of the above, I LOVE this player. Because I'm getting great SACD multichannel and DVD-Audio sound at a cheap price is one of MAIN reasons.

#60 of 587 OFFLINE   Paul.S

Paul.S

    Producer



  • 3,814 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 29 2000
  • Real Name:Paul
  • LocationHollywood, California

Posted July 22 2003 - 10:03 AM

Lewis:

Thanks for the link to the DV-AX10 review, in which reviewer John Sunier says that the poor SACD sound quality of the DV-AX10 compared to the Sony players he had on hand is . . .

Quote:
Probably due to the AX10 pre-conversion of the DSD bitstream into a Linear PCM bitstream before conversion to analog using the same oscillator as for standard CDs. This seems to fly in the face one of the advantages of DVD [sic; does he mean DSD?] in requiring a simpler and less degrading circuit in the digital-to-analog processor.
Ironically, Sunier concluded his review thusly:
Quote:
There is talk that a newly-developed chip decodes both new high-res formats and may make truly universal and lower-priced players a reality, but don't hold your breath.
Wesley et al.:

Thanks for your posts in this thread, especially #59 above, Wesley. Happy to hear that you're pleased with your 563A. I typed up a long(-winded?) post responding largely to your post #54, Sam, but lost it before posting in the wee hours this morning.

In the interest of getting some answers to DSD-to-PCM downconversion questions, I've e-mailed Allen White (the Audio Asylum guy who mentions "PCM DACs with separate SACD inputs" in Sam's link above) inquiring about what chipset(s) is/are used in the 563A and will of course relay word should he respond.

Happy that you made the point about the importance of bass management to those who don't have full-range speakers, Wesley. I was going to make the same point. I think it's also important to note that there are very, very few speakers that can play tones below, say, 30Hz at reference level, which I understand is a central (low end) component of what determines whether a speaker qualifies as "full range" or not. So most of us--audiophile distinctions (pretensions?) aside--do not have truly full range speakers. On both this subject and that of bass management, I think practical, factual answers to questions about the 563A's actual performance are more important and productive (at least to potential purchasers of the unit like me) than theoretical exchanges about the subjects at this point.

Wesley wrote:
Quote:
It is extremely IMPORTANT to have proper bass management for DVD-Audio AND SACDs because each title can be engineered to either use the LFE Sub channel or NOT. They can be engineered to have the bass in the individual channels, LFE or both. Without proper bass management, any bass frequencies in the Front L/R, Center and Surround L/R will be lost on small speakers.
Sam replied:
Quote:
SACDs with channel distribution issues like these (a la Telarc) a few and far between.
Sam, could you please explain your parenthetical reference to Telarc's SACDs? On the one hand, in your post #s 54 and 57, you seem to intimate that bass management is at best unnecessary and at worst a possible source of sound quality degradation that audiophiles wouldn't/shouldn't/don't bother with (never mind that audiophiles probably have full range speakers all around). But Telarc is an audiophile label if there ever was one. (You hopefully know the drill: label heads Jack Renner and Bob Woods are former musicians; their label has been doing DSD recordings for a few years now; had been doing 20-bit recordings way before they were fashionable for years before that; first digital recording of a symphony orchestra in 1978.) Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your meaning. In your experience, is there something endemic/specific to Telarc’s SACDs that makes bass management necessary? And if so, especially considering that label’s pedigree, doesn’t that kind of "fly in the face" of some of what you have said about BM?

Paul


Back to Blu-ray, DVD, LD, Tivo, Satellite and Other Playback Devices



Forum Nav Content I Follow