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John Coltraine's Blue Train[SACD] Dissaponted!


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23 replies to this topic

#1 of 24 OFFLINE   Lewis Besze

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Posted June 12 2003 - 01:00 PM

Today I've got this disc from Music Direct,and I must say it will end up on Ebay or Half.com. I have this on CD a '96 reissue "enhanced" cd[pc content],which proclaims it self as the "Ultimate Train". Well it is superrior to both the new CD layer and the 2ch SACD layer. It seems that a different person from the 96 reissue mastered it,there wasn't mentioning of any new mix,bit it's certainly sounds that way. It's probably the classic situation that new equipment put it's on signature sound on this without doing any remix? I don't know, all I can say is this new disc is sounding very "digital",the soundstge is pushed forward[just like the DSOTM],and it's louder as well,and sounds a bit "compressed" too.Cymbals sounds like crap,no "tail" or "air" around instruments,it's lifeless.And it's not more detail it's glare! I'm very disappointed!

#2 of 24 OFFLINE   Lewis Besze

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Posted June 12 2003 - 01:04 PM

Looks like I messed up the title. Can one of the admins fix it? It should be "Coltrane" and "dissapointed".:b

#3 of 24 OFFLINE   Phil_DC

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Posted June 12 2003 - 01:17 PM

I had plan to get that SACD tomorrow and listen to it over the weekend. I figured it was going to be the best Coltrane mix ever and was looking forward to it. Your review sure took the air out of my bag so to speak! Anyone else have this SACD yet?

#4 of 24 OFFLINE   Lewis Besze

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Posted June 12 2003 - 01:22 PM

Sorry Phil,I was looking for this as much as you were. However you might have a different opinion once listen to it.

#5 of 24 OFFLINE   Justin Lane

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Posted June 12 2003 - 04:40 PM

So far I like what I have heard of this SACD, but have yet to get around to doing a comparison to the earlier CD release which I also own. Supposedly Rudy Van Geldor remastered both this SACD and the earlier Ultimate CD. Maybe different masters were used or the disc was remastered again to sound differently, or the SACD was made from a PCM master. Tomorrow I will try to set some time aside to do a proper comparison and post my thoughts back here. J

#6 of 24 OFFLINE   Lewis Besze

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Posted June 12 2003 - 04:52 PM

Ron McMaster did the 20bit mastering on the "ultimate train".However Rudy is the original recording engineer[1957],and the guy who did the mastering on the SACD. Michael Cuscuna was the producer on both[Ultimate CD]and the SACD as well. Justin, yes please do a comparison,I'd like to hear your opinion on this.

#7 of 24 OFFLINE   Philip Hamm

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Posted June 12 2003 - 11:58 PM

Lewis,

In case you didn't know, there is a Classic Records 96/24 DAD of this album that you should get if you don't already have it. I have the Cannonball Adderly "Somethin' Else" DAD from the same vintage and series and it sounds very good. I have the LP record of Blue Train so I can't directly comment on the DAD, but I think if you do a search you'll find information.
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#8 of 24 OFFLINE   Robert A. Willis Jr.

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Posted June 13 2003 - 01:52 AM

The DAD sounds very good. I think that it sounds better than the Ultimate CD.

#9 of 24 OFFLINE   Justin Lane

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Posted June 13 2003 - 04:35 AM

[quote] The DAD sounds very good. I think that it sounds better than the Ultimate CD. [quote]

I would hope so, since a DAD is a Hi-res disc (the equivalent of a 96khz/24bit DVD-A). Mastering could very well be an issue here. It is quite possible that Classic took more time and mixed their DAD true to the original tape, while Blue Note may have monkeyed around with their release a bit.

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#10 of 24 OFFLINE   Mike Broadman

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Posted June 13 2003 - 07:00 AM

I have the DAD, too, and I love it. I want to the SACD, but I'm not in a hurry simply because I already have a high-res version of this album and I could spend my limited funds on other music. Man, I wish I were rich.

#11 of 24 OFFLINE   Ken Stuart

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Posted June 13 2003 - 09:44 AM

[quote] Man, I wish I were rich. [quote]

Then you couldn't trust any of your friends...

#12 of 24 OFFLINE   Jagan Seshadri

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Posted June 13 2003 - 02:33 PM

I also agree that the Classic Records 24/96 DAD version of Blue Train is excellent. I was curious to know how the SACD version stacked up. I just picked up an SACD player last week. So far, my opinion on the SACD format is mixed. Ultimately, the mixing and mastering qualities make the difference. -JNS

#13 of 24 OFFLINE   Lewis Besze

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Posted June 13 2003 - 03:07 PM

Who sells DAD discs?

#14 of 24 OFFLINE   Philip Hamm

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Posted June 13 2003 - 03:52 PM

www.elusivedisc.com for one. I've gotten some from the software forum sponsor also.
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#15 of 24 OFFLINE   WadeB

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Posted June 13 2003 - 04:14 PM

Acoustic Sounds also has a good selection.

#16 of 24 OFFLINE   Mike Broadman

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Posted June 14 2003 - 05:23 AM

[quote] Ultimately, the mixing and mastering qualities make the difference. [quote]

This mantra should be recited by Music forum regulars before reading the board. It might prevent these stupid "format war" threads.


Are there any other opinions out there on the Blue Train SACD? Surely it can't be that bad.Posted Image

#17 of 24 OFFLINE   Ken Stuart

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Posted June 14 2003 - 05:50 AM

[quote] "Ultimately, the mixing and mastering qualities make the difference."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This mantra should be recited by Music forum regulars before reading the board. It might prevent these stupid "format war" threads.
[quote] That quote is definitely true.

However, format "wars" are not about sound quality, even in this Music Area Forum.

Years of experience in these sorts of discussions indicates that 90% of it is due to a simple procedure:

- Human being buys a product

- Human's ego decides that this brand/format of product is automatically and obviously the "best" since that person has chosen it.

The other 10% is due to two other possibilities:

- Sometimes a person ends up in contact with someone who works for the brand (or format) and has a pleasant interaction that makes them feel like they are "somebody". These interactions often result in that person becoming an unpaid volunteer advocate.

- Then sometimes a person has no preference until they encounter a discussion forum where a volunteer advocate posts, and that person's seemingly irrational advocacy rubs them the wrong way, and they then conclude that the opposite viewpoint is correct. (This psychological mechanism occurs especially frequently in decisions about religion, ie "whatever he says must be the opposite of the truth!").

#18 of 24 OFFLINE   Lee Scoggins

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Posted June 15 2003 - 02:56 PM

[quote] However, format "wars" are not about sound quality, even in this Music Area Forum. [quote]

This is simply not true. The reason I have been an outspoken advocate of Super Audio is that it is the first digital format I discovered that recreates accurately what is on the master tape. I am not the last word in audio authority but I have professional audio and high end passion to draw from. I also work a lot with musicians so I know what instruments sound like. Recently, I have found 24/192k PCM to be highly satisfying as well.

I think there are real benefits to format wars, however. If the discourse is civil, one can learn a lot about listening and the two dominant (and I use this loosely here) hirez formats. Of course, one can always choose not to participate.

The implication here that high rez does not represent a major step up in sonics IMHO does a disservice to Forum members who may be considering a step up. Bottom line: Go for it. You won't be disappointed unless you have a boom box and even then you may be surprised...

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#19 of 24 OFFLINE   Ken Stuart

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Posted June 15 2003 - 06:58 PM

[quote] The implication here that high rez does not represent a major step up in sonics [quote] I wasn't saying that - I'd like to see either hi-res format replace CDs entirely (which would only happen if they were pressed as hybrids, and if they were displayed in the normal CD music location in the stores, rather than a high-res section).

At this point, I have no personal reason to prefer either format, as not only do I have a player for each format, but even if one format went away, I would still keep both players, because one is better on DVDs, and the other is better on CDs.

I also think that which format sounds better in a studio test is irrelevant - there are only two relevant factors:

- Which sounds better in the home. Here I think that Mike's mantra applies - a superbly engineered disk of either format is going to sound better than a poorly engineered disk of the other format. I'm sure you have DVD-Audio disks in your collection that are better than someSACDs, which proves the point.

- but really the only important factor is which format will have wider acceptance and thus success. Despite not having any personal preference now, I still believe that DVD-A is more likely to have wider acceptance, because most people won't make a purchase solely due to subtle quality differences (otherwise they wouldn't be buying MP3s). Thus, DVD-A's features that are beyond those of CD (and SACD) - such as song lyrics, photos, and videos - will have more appeal to a larger audience.

#20 of 24 OFFLINE   Lee Scoggins

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Posted June 15 2003 - 10:43 PM

[quote] I also think that which format sounds better in a studio test is irrelevant [quote]

I think the studio matters because DSD must win over the engineer community as well to get the investment in DSD equipment. Already it has won over most brand name studios.
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