Metallica Black Album DVD-A - Technical Question (1 Viewer)

Alright, I reluctantly picked up the new (old) Metallica black album DVD-A today at BB. Popped it in when I got home, and there was no signal going to my sub. Wait a minute here... Checked all the connections, and everything was fine. Tried my only other DVD-A (Disturbed), and the lfe kicked right in. Had everything set identical (and correctly I believe) on my equipment. No .1 coming from Metallica though. Anyone else out there have this DVD-A??? Here is my equipment:

Elite 45TX
Elite DV45A
NHT T5's, M5 center, CS 8.3 surrounds (also, the amp and crossover that come with the T5's have indicator lights, and as soon as the a sound signal is recognized they go from standby (orange) to on (green)).

Any help or feedback would be greatly appreciated. I am going to test it further tomorrow.

Yes, I own this DVD-a. The LFE works fine, and is very apparent. No idea what the problem could be though.

Thanks for the reply, Shayne. I'm just about to go test this again to make sure I'm not crazy. Might take it back to BB for an exchange.

I doubt the disc is defective.

A couple questions. I have a 45A, and there are some quirks with Bass Management (If you want a headache, search on the HTF Audio/Video Sources, and type in 45A Bass Management).

How is the BM set in the player? How about levels in the player? How is the player connected to your receiver? 6CH inputs, I assume?

Putting that aside, do you know if this disk is 5.1, 5.0. 4.0. etc.? BM on the 45A does not work correctly with DVD-A 4.0 (not sure about 5.0).

Another possibility; do you now for sure that the player is grabbing the DVD-A MC tracks? I have had occasion to find that the player for unknown reasons defaulted to something other than the DVD-A MC tracks. Hitting the "display" or "audio" button while the disc is playing will tell you what it is doing.

BGL

I have the Yamaha S2300, and my metallica disc works fine.... HOWEVER I am not positive but i think the metallica one may be a 5.0 recording and the Disturbed one a 5.1 recording, so if the BM isn't workign quite right then that would be the problem.

i will try both discs tonight though and see what happens, maybe im deaf or something.

Check out the DD track on the DVD-V program. That one has prominent and near-constant LFE, and your player and/or receiver might even be able to give you a visual indication of its presence. This might help you to isolate whether it is hardware or software related.

Regards,

And that cowbell in the left rear speaker during "My Friend Of Misery" is normal. That's just Will Ferrell making a cameo appearance on the surround mix.

I returned the disc today to BB in exchange for a new one. One of the hinges on the plastic case also broke off upon initially unwrapping it. Got the disc home and tried it out, and same thing. However, before testing it out, I stopped by my NHT dealer to test it down there (same front speaker setup as I have). The NHT crossover picked up the .1 signal right away. They were using a Marantz receiver and a Pioneer DVD/DVD-A/etc. player.

Brian,

Yes, I do have all the analog channels hooked up between DV45A and 45TX. I just double checked the back cover, and it is indeed a 5.1 mix. Also, I put the Disturbed disc in and it recognized the .1 immediately. As posted earlier, I know as soon as that .1 hits the subs due to the standby lights on the NHT crossover and amp going from orange to green (can alos hear it). The .1 kicked right in at the dealer though. I'm really scratching my head on this. You have a good suggestion to check some of the setup menus in the DV45A, I will try this tonight.

Alright, I checked out the setup menus in the DV45A with manual in hand, and I'm almost positive that I have all the settings correct. Still no .1. At wit's end, I called Pioneer, and about the best they could tell me is to take it in to a local service center. The rep believes something is messed up with the player according to the information that I have given him. I think I'm going to try and call my dealer as a last ditch effort. I'm trying not to lose my DVD player for x number of weeks. Please, if there any other suggestions out there, I would be most grateful to hear them. Would it be anything in the receiver at all? Thanks in advance.

Several more thoughts..

Although I can not site the page #, there is a simple procedure in the manual to reset the player to factory defaults. I would give that a try, and reset everything from scratch.

Another possibility; the disc is NOT 5.1, regardless of what the box says. If that were the case, this would NOT be the first time that a disc was mislabeled.

When you play the disc, and hit the "display" it will tell you what channels are there. It should say 3/2.1. If it is 3/2, I would suspect that its a BM issue, as exists with 4.0 DVD-A stuff.

Did you try the DD mix on the DVD-V layer as Ken suggested? To do that, you will likely need to go into the menu and select DVD-V for DVD-A titles.

That would be a good test.

BGL

I just checked the disc on my 47Ai, it says 3/2.1, but the lfe is very weak, not much sub output at all. Maybe the disc is authored without much in the lfe, or maybe pioneer players just don't like it.

besides the technical issues related with this disc, how is the surround mix? is it worth buying for an average fan?

I'm going to go check some of your suggestions. I just got back from the dealer where I bought my DV45A and 45TX from. They put the Metallica disc into their display DV45A, and it had no problem with the lfe. I felt it coming out of the sub. I will try some of these suggestions. Let me get back to you guys in a little bit.

Ok, here's the latest. I tried Brian L's recommendations (except for resetting and starting from scratch), and I found some even more interesting news. While the Metallica disc was playing I pressed the Audio button on the remote and it read "3/2.1 PPCM 96kHz 24 bit". When I put the Distrubed DVD-A in and pressed the audio button it read "3/2.1 PPCM 48 kHz 24 bit". Once again, the subs kicked right in on the Disturbed disc. Also, switching it to DVD-Video layer did not cause anything different. Here's another twist, while the Metallica disc was playing, I went around to listen to each speaker, and there is nothing coming out of the center channel either. What the hell is going on??? Keep in mind, that when I took the Metallica disc to my NHT dealer who put it in with a Marantz receiver and a Pioneer DVD/DVD-A player, the subs did kick in and the NHT crossover and amp recognized the signal right away. I think I might take my DV45A player back up to my Elite dealer tomorrow and swap it with their display and test it that way as well. First, I will do a complete reset on it, dependent on finding instructions in the manual, and give that a shot. This is really strange. I also triple checked all the connections around back.

Brian D.,

You had asked about the actual mix of the music, and it's been a little tough to review it with all these problems. I did do a little listening without the subs (and apparently CC), and it sounded pretty good on the beginning of Enter Sandman. It sounds pretty cool as it is winding up during the intro of the song. I'll have to give more detail at a later date, after I figure out all this other crap going on.

Jon,
I've had some interesting discoveries with this DVD-A myself. I'm running a Denon 1600 DVD-A player with an optical digital cable and the 6 multi-channel analog cables connected. When I put it in, i get the option to go between stereo and surround track listening. I put it on surround and got all six channels no problem. Then I took the disc over to a friends house who just has a standard DVD-V player and popped it in. We were unable to get any menu except for the song list, but it appeared to play the surround tracks, but come to think about it, I don't think his subwoofer kicked in. The only thing I could possibly think of was that the disc sensed what kind of capability the player had or what cables were currently available for output and gave the appropriate menu. I could be way off though as I'm still learning new things everyday.
The only thing I can offer, and its a stretch, but try to disconnect the digital outputs from the player leaving only the analog multi-channel outputs connected and see if you get any different results. Good luck.
BTW, I know on my receiver (Denon 2802) I have to manualy select multi-channel input to get to play the analog source. Does your receiver have a multi-channel input override?
Regards,
Phil

Phil,

Thanks for your input. Yes, the 45TX has a multi-channel input that you select, and forces the signal select to Analog. I have all the analog connections hooked up correctly. Like you, I get the same option for the menu. You can do either surround playist, stereo playlist, and some other features. Right now, it is playing like a Dolby 4.0 surround sound.

Any one remember a day when you had a two channel receiver, a pair of speakers, maybe a turntable, and life was good???? OK, maybe I am dating myself.

A few more comments. The data you saw when hitting the audio button is legit. DVD-A supports different sampling rates and bit depth, so the numbers you saw just show that Metallica went with slightly better resolution.

Good idea to drag the 45A to the dealer, and swap with a known good unit. That will tell the tale.

First thought when you said you lost center was that the player was set for 2CH, not 5.1 (mine did that inexplicably once), but your Disturbed disc test blows that theory to hell.

Page 70 has the reset procedure. Its easy.

Put the player in standby (StandBy/On switch to Off).
Press and hold the STOP button, and simultaneously press the Standby/On switch.

It will come up with the initial menu that you only see when you first powered the player.

Philip, what you saw may have been normal. Disc authoring varies a lot, and navigation on the DVD-V layer may not be the same as the DVD-A layer. You need to try selecting either the DVD Menu button or Top Menu button. That said, it can vary by player, and vary by disc.

Set-up should not be an issue, and it certainly should not be automatic. Your friend should have been accessing the DD tracks (don't know this disc, but I assume it has a 5.1 DD mix on the DVD-V layer). It may also have a 2CH mix on the DVD-V layer. Its possible that the player grabbed that? If it did, it may have been decoded by the receiver as Pro Logic, which may have lost a lot of impact compared top DD 5.1 or DVD-A 5.1

I may need to head to Best Buy tonight and get this title. I am a casual fan of The Black Album, and now that its about $14, what the hell.

BGL

Brian,
Thanks for the info, that makes sense to me now.

Jon,
Good luck to you with this interesting dilemma, you'll have to keep us posted with your findings.

Phil

Oh, I will. I already have my gameplan laid out for tomorrow. I'm going to the Elite dealer first, and if nothing gets resolved, them I'm heading straight to the NHT dealer with the DV45A in hand. I'm going to get to the bottom of this nonsense.

OK, here's the scoop. I took my DV45A up to my Elite dealer today, and before we even got it hooked up, we tried the disc on their display model again. Turns out, it wasn't outputting the .1, and same as mine, no center channel either. We double-checked all the connections and setup menus. It was hooked up to a 47TX and it was set to multi-channel input. It would not output the center channel nor the LFE. Now, we tried the same disc (Metallica) in an Integra hooked up to an Integra receiver, and it played the 5.1 no problem. Sounded pretty good I might add. So, we hooked the DV45A up to the Integra receiver, and still no center or LFE. For grins, we tried the Metallica disc with a demo Elite 47ai hooked up to a 49TXi (hooked up analog and not firewire for this test), and the 47ai would only output the front speakers and LFE (no center or surrounds). Well, that's interesting. Another interesting note is that the dealers display and my unit were both manufactured in July '02.

Bottom Line: There's something not right in the DV45A playing the Metallica black album DVD-A. Now, has anyone else out there have this disc and the DV45A (or 47 for that matter), or would be willing to buy the Metallica disc for an unscientific research study to further test this out? Actually, I think I am going to post a link to this thread in the source section, to gaina wider audience.

For now, my dealer is hunting down their Pioneer rep to see what's going on from a firmware standpoint. Also, here's the real funny thing, when I was at my NHT dealer and they played the disc, it was on a regular Pioneer 656 (I think that's the model), and it played correctly.