Jump to content



Sign up for a free account!

Signing up for an account is fast and free. As a member you can join in the conversation, enter contests to win things like this Logitech Harmony Ultimate Remote and you won't get the popup ads that guests get. Click here to create your free account.

Photo

Did THX ever have that "discussion" about the EE on Phantom Menace DVD???


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
190 replies to this topic

#1 of 191 DaViD Boulet

DaViD Boulet

    Lead Actor

  • 8,805 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 24 1999

Posted June 10 2003 - 09:07 AM

Remember way back when all the bruhaha about the ringing/EE in the Phantom Menace DVD...and how the THX folks assured us that it had not been applied despite the fact that it was glaringly there? Many of us (including Bjoern who did an excellent review of this DVD here: http://www.videophil.../TPM/TPM_01.htm) hypothosized that it might have been due to a function of the MPEG encoder though definitely *not* an MPEG-compression artifact per-se.

BTW, please, don't start posting comments like "maybe it's in the film elements" and other such non-sense which has long since been put to rest. If you have any questions about what I'm talking about...see the link to Bjoern's review above.

Anyway...the THX folks said that they were going to host some sort of "discussion" where they would come out and talk about the whole issue, what happened/didn't happen etc. with the HT community. One would have imagined it would have been reported on here at HTF if it had happened and I don't remember ever hearing about it.

Did it just quietly disappear? At least their Attack of the Clones DVD appears to have been properly mastered to 720 x 480 DVD without any distracting ringing from EE so that's a good sign. But it would be nice to know what happened with Phantom Menace and if we'll have a chance to buy a properly-mastered DVD in the future prior to HD-DVD release.

So...does anyone know the scoop?
Be an Original Aspect Ratio Advocate

Supporter of 1080p24 video and lossless 24 bit audio.

#2 of 191 Artur Meinild

Artur Meinild

    Screenwriter

  • 1,300 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 10 2000

Posted June 10 2003 - 09:15 AM

To answer the topic question: I guess not.
I lost a lot of faith in THX during this incident, and nothing they said really made any sense. All they did was to try and wipe it under the carpet and make people forget. Very bad QA and PR! Posted Image

A r t u r M e i n i l d
People Strategy Consultant (M.Sc. Eng.)Semi-professional Composer & Musician

#3 of 191 RobertR

RobertR

    Lead Actor

  • 9,418 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 19 1998

Posted June 10 2003 - 09:42 AM

I think the people at THX internally know they blew it on TPM, and they now realize that there would be no point in having us point out the obvious to them.

#4 of 191 Michael St. Clair

Michael St. Clair

    Producer

  • 6,009 posts
  • Join Date: May 03 1999

Posted June 10 2003 - 09:47 AM

Ah, yes, the infamous 'workshop' where they were going to show us that no EE or introduction had been introduced to the TPM transfer.

I asked about it once or twice, to deafening silence.

#5 of 191 Tom M

Tom M

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 214 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 06 1999

Posted June 10 2003 - 11:34 AM

As I recall, they never said they WERE going to do a workshop just that they COULD do one if there was interest in it.

My guess is that everyone misunderstood and thought that either the workshop was going to happen or already had. Either way talk about it died down and that was that.

For the record, to this day I STILL can't see the EE in my TPM DVD. I looked pretty hard and nothing. Now, that's true of what I see on my system so don't jump all over me.

Tombstone on the other hand...Posted Image
My crummy Deviant Art page. Read my epic poem The Pirate's Tale written in tribute to the Ozy & Millie comic strip.

http://cougartiger.deviantart.com/

#6 of 191 Andy_MT

Andy_MT

    Second Unit

  • 486 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 23 2001

Posted June 10 2003 - 11:50 AM

Quote:
I lost a lot of faith in THX during this incident

they lost me back in 97. actually, don't think they ever had me. bunch of pirates if you ask me. studios aren't entirely blameless either. they went along for the ride. the one time i felt sorry for J6P, who blindingly thought that THX meant what it said on the tin. columbias superbit brand means more than THX ever has.

#7 of 191 RobertR

RobertR

    Lead Actor

  • 9,418 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 19 1998

Posted June 10 2003 - 11:56 AM

Quote:
I STILL can't see the EE in my TPM DVD


Can you see it on Bjoern Roy's web site?

#8 of 191 jonathan_little

jonathan_little

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 223 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 19 2002

Posted June 10 2003 - 12:01 PM

I personally enjoy watching the THX logo before the out-of-sync DTS presentation on the Moulin Rouge disc. Great stuff. Posted Image

Posted Image

#9 of 191 Patrick McCart

Patrick McCart

    Lead Actor

  • 7,456 posts
  • Join Date: May 16 2001
  • Real Name:Patrick McCart
  • LocationBlairsville, GA, USA

Posted June 10 2003 - 12:36 PM

The Phantom Menace has ringing, but it's really only in select scenes (typical problem scenes like light/dark contrasts)

Moulin Rouge is out of sync on certain players.

#10 of 191 Jeff Kleist

Jeff Kleist

    Executive Producer

  • 11,286 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 04 1999

Posted June 10 2003 - 05:05 PM

Quote:
Can you see it on Bjoern Roy's web site?


Only because his pictures are blown up, and I don't see it on my TV, and I CAN see halos on things like the ST:TNG sets if I'm looking for them.

Give me solid, preferably TIFF files direct 720x480 grabs from the disc and then I'll look again.

#11 of 191 DaViD Boulet

DaViD Boulet

    Lead Actor

  • 8,805 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 24 1999

Posted June 11 2003 - 12:25 AM

Jeff,

How big is your TV screen?

Watch the DVD on a well-calibrated 16x9 display in 480P or higher playback resolution. If need be...take it to your local HT boutique shop and give it a spin on one of their digital projectors (like the Sharp 10000 Posted Image )...

Now...sit about 1.5 screen-widths back. This is the "ideal" distance with good source material (like a well-rendered DVD) with a big-screen image to deliver a "theater-like" experience.

The ringing/haloing is more than obvious in this type of presentation. Some folks may see it but be so used to "video" looking image that it might not occur to them at first that it's wrong. Heck...many people watch sports on huge 4x3 480 interlaced rear-projection sets and never seem to notice the HORRENDOUS scan-line alisiasing/interlacing artifacts that are plain-as-day. In any case...once you see it (the edge enhancment) it will be obvious from that point on.

If your viewing angle is more than 2.5 screen-widths away from your display the ringing won't be obvious bcs your not close enough to perceive that level of detail from the transfer.

-dave
Be an Original Aspect Ratio Advocate

Supporter of 1080p24 video and lossless 24 bit audio.

#12 of 191 Declan

Declan

    Second Unit

  • 410 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 22 2002

Posted June 11 2003 - 01:40 AM

The r2 DVD of PM had EE, but from what i have seen, it was not as bad as the r1. Moulin Rouge DTS played grand on my player (Pioneer 717).


Dare I mention Die hard With A Vengence, surley that was a bigger travesty than PM. DH 1 and 2 looked great (considereing their age), but this was just pure cack. Take a look at the theatrical trailer for DHWAV on disc 2 of the set. It's anmorphic and very filmic looking with no EE (that i could see), compared to the actual film.
"So, Jeff Beck pops his head 'round the door, and mentions there's a little sweets shop on the edge of town. So - we go. And - it's closed"

#13 of 191 Geoff_D

Geoff_D

    Supporting Actor

  • 885 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 18 2002

Posted June 11 2003 - 02:41 AM

I've got both R2 and R1 versions of TPM and I can honestly say that I prefer the R1. Yes there are edge halos present on both versions, and do look more prominent on the R1, but I've seen a hell of a lot worse. On the plus side, the NTSC picture appears to have slightly less grain than the R2 (a consequence of NTSC's reduced vertical resolution perhaps?) and looks more solid as a result IMO. Even the colours look richer to me on the R1, as the R2 appears ever-so-slightly washed out. Having the audio in the correct pitch and uncensored extras are also big bonuses for the R1, so I think I'll be ditching the R2 soon.

And as your man Declan so rightly points out, there are some truly hideous examples of haloing out there, with DHWAV as public enemy number one. Big Trouble in Little China (Fox again) has some obvious halos, as does the T2:UE dvd, and the new Robin Hood dvd also displays some (which is one of the reasons why I bitch about it so much in the RHPosted ImageoT thread).

#14 of 191 Paul_Stachniak

Paul_Stachniak

    Screenwriter

  • 1,303 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 07 2003

Posted June 11 2003 - 02:49 AM

I remember the EE in Phantom Menace. This was before I got my HighDef TV too. It really stands out in the pod race sequence. It didn't bother me, because I never really liked the film. However, I felt bad for all the fans, who waited patiently for this DVD, to get such a shoddy transfer.
DVD Collection | Video Game Collection | Live Gamertag: vicodinjunkie

#15 of 191 Aaron Cohen

Aaron Cohen

    Second Unit

  • 468 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 25 2002

Posted June 11 2003 - 03:02 AM

I thought the complaining of DHWAV was limited to the original dvd release of it. I was assuming they had fixed it in the 2-disc edition. I own that one but have not watched it. I owned the original dvd but gave it away due to the transfer quality.

I'm just confirming that this is the 2-disc version you are discussing here. Unbelievable that the EE issue was not fixed if it is.

#16 of 191 Geoff_D

Geoff_D

    Supporting Actor

  • 885 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 18 2002

Posted June 11 2003 - 03:32 AM

Aaron, it is the R1 2-disc version of DHWAV that we're talking about. This has the worst haloing out of any title in my 400-strong dvd collection. But y'know what? It's still preferable to the original R1 non-anamorphic DHWAV, which looked so shoddy I don't even wanna think about it.

#17 of 191 DaViD Boulet

DaViD Boulet

    Lead Actor

  • 8,805 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 24 1999

Posted June 11 2003 - 03:39 AM

Has anyone campared the 2-disc to the original?
Be an Original Aspect Ratio Advocate

Supporter of 1080p24 video and lossless 24 bit audio.

#18 of 191 Rob Gillespie

Rob Gillespie

    Producer

  • 3,634 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 17 1998

Posted June 11 2003 - 05:40 AM

Quote:
I thought the complaining of DHWAV was limited to the original dvd release of it. I was assuming they had fixed it in the 2-disc edition.

No, the 2-discer is anamorphic but still looks pretty rough. Lots of haloing. Like Declan said, compare the trailer to the actual film and you'll see a big difference.
No longer here.

#19 of 191 Reagan

Reagan

    Supporting Actor

  • 542 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 23 2002

Posted June 11 2003 - 05:50 AM

As far as THX goes, they really missed the boat in the home theater software department. As Robert Harris pointed out, all their certification process does is certify that the equipment used to master the disc meets their standards. If they would expand their certification to include things like: a) no EE, b) acceptible bit rate and lack of compression artifacts, and c) film grain that matches theatrical grain levels, then we would have something very useful.

Back in the day when THX was limited to movie theater equipment issues (the '80s), the THX stamp of approval really meant something. At the theater I worked in, the projectionists told me stories of how the THX guys would measure things like the level of ambient noise generated by HVAC system. If noise levels were too high, then the theater could lose its THX certification. Good stuff.

-Reagan
The truth doesn't care whether you believe it.

#20 of 191 Jeff Kleist

Jeff Kleist

    Executive Producer

  • 11,286 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 04 1999

Posted June 11 2003 - 06:49 AM

Quote:
Watch the DVD on a well-calibrated 16x9 display in 480P or higher playback resolution. If need be...take it to your local HT boutique shop and give it a spin on one of their digital projectors (like the Sharp 10000 )...


I saw it on the Scootplex, indoor and out, saw nothing. I was sitting about 20ft from a 20ft screen on the outdoor, so basically 1:1.

If you're going to show your movies on a 10 foot screen, if it doesn't look that great I'd have to say it's your problem. DVD and NTSC are not mediums intended for 10ft+ screens, so YMMV

One thing that people REALLY don't seem to understand is tha the studio monitors that DVDs are authored on are typically sub=25" (no, they don't make them bigger), so they're not going to catch these huge-screen problems, nor are the QC facilities equipped (and nor will they be) for testing discs on 10ft screens.

The mere setup expense would be astronomical


Back to DVD



Forum Nav Content I Follow