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ReplayTV & Progressive Output


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#1 of 25 OFFLINE   Camp

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Posted June 08 2003 - 11:15 AM

Is there any benefit to using the component video out feature found on some ReplayTV models? (I'm using standard cable service as my source)

My gut tells me there wouldn't be much/any benefit as the signal is derrived from the normal coax coming into the house.

Just curious.

#2 of 25 OFFLINE   JamesHl

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Posted June 09 2003 - 08:00 AM

I can't imagine that there would be.

#3 of 25 OFFLINE   Art_Courville

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Posted June 09 2003 - 11:09 AM

I think it depends on your monitor. On mine, the 480p is noticably better.

#4 of 25 OFFLINE   Camp

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Posted June 09 2003 - 03:10 PM

Yea, I know 480p is better...the question here is is there any difference when the source is regular cable TV via coax.

#5 of 25 OFFLINE   Lyndon Allydice

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Posted June 10 2003 - 03:06 AM

It's not that the component out would make the output better than the input, but using the component out means that your ReplayTV doesn't have to do another digital to analog conversion.

If you go coax, av, or svideo out, the box has to convert the digital file back to analog where you may lose additional quality.

So, there can be benefits.

#6 of 25 OFFLINE   JamesHl

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Posted June 10 2003 - 03:36 AM

Component is still analog, though. Isn't it?

#7 of 25 OFFLINE   Camp

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Posted June 10 2003 - 03:37 AM

Huh?
That's not right. Component video is analog just like svideo and svideo.

#8 of 25 OFFLINE   Lyndon Allydice

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Posted June 10 2003 - 04:30 AM

Maybe, I'm confused. If so, please educate me.
I always thought the 480p(YPbPr) was a digital out for video. If not, then I've been laboring under the wrong impressing for some time. Can someone explain?

What about HDTV tuners that have the component output that's used for the HD content? I thought that was a digital out. Is it nothing more than an analog out with better resolution? Like, Svideo over composite?


Lyndon

#9 of 25 OFFLINE   Lyndon Allydice

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Posted June 10 2003 - 04:52 AM

Ok, so bear with me little...
Not knowing my original assumption was incorrect, I never actually took time to dig deeper...

When reading about the different video formats, I keep seeing comments about how there are fewer "format conversions" when using analog component ouput or how using component reduces "unncessary format conversions".

What are the format conversions being referred to?

#10 of 25 OFFLINE   Camp

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Posted June 10 2003 - 06:07 AM

Quote:
When reading about the different video formats, I keep seeing comments about how there are fewer "format conversions" when using analog component ouput or how using component reduces "unncessary format conversions".

I'd guess they were refering to DVD & progressive scan. Movies are stored on DVD in 480p...if you use composite or svideo I guess the DVD player has to convert that 480p to 480i. Using component video on a TV capable of 480p would pass the native data.

Quote:
What about HDTV tuners that have the component output that's used for the HD content? I thought that was a digital out. Is it nothing more than an analog out with better resolution? Like, Svideo over composite?

Most HDTVs in homes today are analog televisions (CRTs). Only a few types are considered fully digital TVs (plasma & LCD, for example). A HDTV tuner's purpose is to receive the digital HD signal and convert it to the proper format for your television. If yours is a CRT based TV (front projection, rear projection, or standard tube) the tuner must convert the HD signal to analog. This is a generalization (some CRTs can accept a digital signal, they just convert it to analog inside the TV), of course, but yea, it's "nothing more than an analog out with better resolution". Not quite the same as svideo over composite though, as the signal is HD as opposed to SDTV.

Hopefully the industry will finally adopt a true digital cable standard. I know there has been movement in this direction I just haven't kept up on its status.

#11 of 25 OFFLINE   David Judah

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Posted June 11 2003 - 06:40 PM

It makes the menus look better, but it's not a progressive out for recorded material. The fact that your signal comes in through coax has nothing to do with it.

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#12 of 25 OFFLINE   Mike Voigt

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Posted June 11 2003 - 11:06 PM

Allan Jayne has a really good set of pages explaining some of the differences, terminology, etc. involved:

Allan Jayne's Video Hints

I think it will answer most of your questions - and then some.

Let's just say that there is no real simple explanation. In a nutshell, it involves the normalization, reranging, rephasing, and superposition of video and audio signals prior to sending out and their reconversion back to the original at the TV. Of the connector types, F-type connectors contain not just the video but also the audio, YRW connectors contain all of the video on the yellow connection and separate the audio on the Red/White connectors, S-Video has the same except the "Y" signal no longer contains the luminance (S) portion but sends it separately (hence the name), component goes a step further and retains the CB/Pb and Cr/Pr signals separate from the rest of what is "Y". We still have to go from there to the raw data sent to the color tubes... so it still converts quite a bit even with a "component progressive" connection - but a lot of the reasons why F-type, Y, and to a much lesser extent S-Video connections have artifacts in them is eliminated through separate signals.

This is where comb filters play a major role, too. They do the separating of a Y signal into its components.

HTH. Mike

#13 of 25 OFFLINE   Art_Courville

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Posted June 12 2003 - 04:38 PM

>>It makes the menus look better, but it's not a progressive out for
>>recorded material.

Not true. The output is 480p, whether it is a menu or recorded content. The original recording was from a 480i signal, but the output is 480p.

#14 of 25 OFFLINE   Camp

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Posted June 13 2003 - 01:04 AM

Ok...so is it fair to say the Replay unit upconverts 480i to 480p?

It sounds like going the component video route will be worth my while after all.

#15 of 25 OFFLINE   Art_Courville

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Posted June 13 2003 - 05:58 AM

>> is it fair to say the Replay unit upconverts 480i to 480p?

Yes. Whether that will look better on your TV or not depends on your equipment. On mine, it is noticably better than s-video. Other have reported better results with s-video.

#16 of 25 OFFLINE   Stephen Tu

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Posted June 13 2003 - 11:02 AM

Right, it boils down to whether line doubler in the TV is better than the one in the Replay or vice versa.

#17 of 25 OFFLINE   Kelley_B

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Posted June 13 2003 - 07:30 PM

Camp,

My roommate has a ReplayTV unit hooked up to a Samsung 43" DLP RPTV and we use DirecTV, and I must say that the ReplayTV picture SUCKS. I have 2 DirecTiVos and their S-Video picture blows away the quality on the Replay unit, including the Component 480p out. He has said that if it wasn't for the download feature on the Replay he'd switch over to DirecTiVo.

#18 of 25 OFFLINE   Stephen Tu

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Posted June 14 2003 - 06:22 AM

For DirecTV, there's no way a device that reencodes the analog output of a STB (Replay or standalone Tivo) is going to match the video quality of a box that just stores the bitstream directly (DirecTivo). Same for DishPVRs vs. standalone PVR + separate STB.

#19 of 25 OFFLINE   Art_Courville

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Posted June 14 2003 - 10:38 AM

Well, maybe if the input is down-converted HD. I use my Replay to record HD material (downconverted over s-video), and the picture quality is very good. Of course, if you record a bad source (locals over DirecTV are the worst), the picture can be pretty bad.

#20 of 25 OFFLINE   David Judah

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Posted June 14 2003 - 05:31 PM

Quote:
Not true. The output is 480p, whether it is a menu or recorded content. The original recording was from a 480i signal, but the output is 480p.

That is a common misconception. The output is only progressive for the menu, freeze frames, and the picture viewer, but not for recorded material.

From the Replay TV FAQ:
Quote:
Yes, the ReplayTV transmits a progressive scan signal and the menu system and picture is very crisp. However, the digital video that is stored on the hard disk has been sampled from an interlaced signal and the ReplayTV does not further process this video(emphasis mine). The result is that when the video is played through the Component Output to a digital TV, you see the original interlacing from the source MPEG movie file.
and
Quote:
So in effect, the progressive scan feature only applies to the menu system, freeze frames, and picture viewer.

I verified this with Sonic Blue.

DJ
Lecktor: Then how did you catch me?
Graham: You had disadvantages.
Lecktor: What disadvantages?
Graham: You're insane.


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