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GR or Adire?


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70 replies to this topic

#1 of 71 OFFLINE   Brian Tatnall

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Posted June 08 2003 - 10:39 AM

Hello everyone,

I'm going to be buying a DIY setup this summer and I'm running into hundreds of options, but I have narrowed it down some. I have around $800 right now.

Which setup would any of you do?

Adire Setup
F: KIT281 (vented)
R: KIT81
C: LCC or KIT81C
S: Unknown

GR Research
F: A/V3 or A/V1+
R: A/V3 or A/V1+
C: A/V1+
S: Unknown

I will be building this system overtime and I am able to purchase the center channel and fronts only at first.

I already have a few opinions, but I just want to hear what everyone has to say. This will be my first DIY in HT (Car audio addict for a few years).

If anyone has other suggestions I would appreciate them also. I suggestion has been the new Stryke S series that can be found HERE With this setup I could afford to get all 5 speakers and a sub at the same time.

Thanks all,
Brian

#2 of 71 OFFLINE   Dan Wesnor

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Posted June 08 2003 - 12:34 PM

I've built the Kit 81 and used GR's woofs in my own designs, and there's no comparison between the quality of the midrange in the GR woofers and Adire AV-8. The GR woofers sound much, much better.

The only thing the Adire kits have going for them is powerful low-end, but if you're adding a sub anyway, who cares?

#3 of 71 OFFLINE   Brian Tatnall

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Posted June 08 2003 - 02:01 PM

Thanks for the reply Dan!

This is the kind of information I am wanting, but I am left saddened by it. Posted Image "No comparison" is a mighty statment. I want my low end extension and quality midrage too. Posted Image What has been the maximum low end that the GR woofers have give you? How do the woofers compare looking at output?

I have trouble getting away from the sheer displacement advantage the AV8 has with more Sd and a great Xmax. It would take nearly two M-130's to keep up.

I could not find a 'bad' review of any Adire Kit and I couldn't find a 'bad' one about the GR kit either. At LDSG the Adire kits generally have ** and the GR's have *** and I was wondering why. I guess this is the reason.

I took some time to look at your site (and all the links your site points to). Very nice! Would you suggest a kit at all or could you 'tutor' me through a design Posted Image.

Thanks

#4 of 71 OFFLINE   Dan Wesnor

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Posted June 08 2003 - 02:47 PM

The AV-8 has a very nasty bump at 2kHz which is difficult to tame. It is quite audible, especially since Adire's designs cross to the tweeter right on top of it.

For low-end extension and quality midrange, you'd want a ScanSpeak woofer. If they're worked right, they sound wonderful. But you can't get 5 speakers for $800. Posted Image Dennis Murphy has a design using the Usher woofer that should be pretty good, but that still might be out of your price range.

I would definitely suggest a kit - it takes several months of hard work to learn to design a pair of speakers from scratch.

I have never heard Danny's designs with the GR's, but having used the M130 woofer, I am impressed by it. Its only fault is that it doesn't move much air. From what I've read about his designs, they are very good. And this is from other designers, not reviewers. So even though I've never heard them, I am comfortable recommending them.

I've only used the woofers in sealed boxes, which I prefer. Sealed, they will roll off at about 85Hz, which would blend almost perfectly with a subwoofer.

Other designs I recommend you look at are Dennis Murphy's and Rick Craig's (www.selahaudio.com - you'll have to e-mail him). Both have an excellent reputation. If you have more budget, Geoff Dillon's designs are highly acclaimed (www.dillonacoustics.com)

And, of course, I could also recommend my speakers, the Models 1, 2, and 3 (in that order). I don't normally push them on people, because as far as I know, I'm the only one who's heard them. Posted Image

#5 of 71 OFFLINE   Chris Tsutsui

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Posted June 08 2003 - 08:31 PM

I was in the same boat as you Brian, and I remember reading that somebody was able to compare Kits281s with AV-3s and found the Av-3s to be better which is why I chose the AV-3s.

On July 14th, I'll be able to A/B compare my AV-3 sonicaps (GR-165 drivers) to the Kit281s in a comparison and there'll be plenty of other people who can post the difference if you're not in a rush.

I have compared the AV-1+ (GR M130 non-sonicaps) to the AV-3 Sonicaps. For detail, I like the AV-1+ which will have a slight edge and show more subtle sounds. The AV-3s have a fuller sound and can sound rather full without a sub.


#6 of 71 OFFLINE   Bob Bartlett

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Posted June 08 2003 - 11:15 PM

I'll second selahaudio.com. All of his projects are not listed on his site. You can email him for info. I built the RC2 and have been more than pleased and they are reasonably priced to.

#7 of 71 Guest_Anthony_Gomez_*

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Posted June 09 2003 - 02:23 AM

Chris, JUNE 14th. This Saturday Posted Image

#8 of 71 OFFLINE   Danny Richie

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Posted June 09 2003 - 05:45 AM

Not to get into the comparisons, you guys can make those, but to follow up with some related info based on some of what was said.

At the LDSG site the *** are based on positive feedback received about XYZ kit. It is not a rating based on performance.

Quote:
I have compared the AV-1+ (GR M130 non-sonicaps) to the AV-3 Sonicaps. For detail, I like the AV-1+ which will have a slight edge and show more subtle sounds. The AV-3s have a fuller sound and can sound rather full without a sub.


I agree, and this is what pushed the development of the new M-130/16.

This is a new 16 ohm version of the beloved M-130 woofer.

It is used in the new A/V-3.

It offers an 8 ohm speaker in an MTM floor stander (no stands needed) with the speed and detail of the A/V-1+ and with the lower bass extension of the A/V-3 (using larger 6.5" woofers).

The pair of 5.25" woofers have a tightly controlled bass thanks to the loading of the transmission line enclosure, with a -3db of 40Hz. This is pretty low for a 5.25" woofer and matches the low end extension of many larger woofers, while still being capable of producing speed and detail that is quite difficult to match with a larger driver.

By comparison the pair of M-130/16's have right at 28 sq. in. of surface area (Sd) while a single 6" woofer has about 21 to 22 sq. in. and a single 8" woofer has about 33-31 sq. in.

And as an update for all of those that have been asking:

The new M130/16's have now arrived in Dallas and if all goes well they will be picked up tomorrow. So the new woofers will be available for shipping later this week. I know a lot of people have been waiting patiently for them to get here, including myself, so orders for them can be filled soon.

#9 of 71 OFFLINE   Allen Ross

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Posted June 09 2003 - 06:10 AM

good news
Member and Founder of the "Its Never to Big or too Loud to have in a Dorm Club"
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#10 of 71 OFFLINE   Brian Fellmeth

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Posted June 09 2003 - 07:06 AM

I have never heard an 81/281. but I can verify that the GR 130 is a first rate woofer and an incredible performer at the $24 price point.

#11 of 71 OFFLINE   Dan Pawlowski

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Posted June 09 2003 - 07:26 AM

I have kit281s and i think they sound great... but really should you not compare like sized drivers to each other....kit281s use 8 inch drivers and A/V3s use 6.5 inch ...not a fair comparison IMO....Adire sells a new driver; AV5 (5.25 inch) ...anyone hear this driver?

Dan

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#12 of 71 OFFLINE   Michael R Price

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Posted June 09 2003 - 08:07 AM

Hey guys, the Kit281s sound great. They probably don't have the same amazingly smooth midrange as the GR speakers, but they do have other qualities you might like... bass quality, dynamics... put them on some decent electronics (namely, an amplifier that doesn't totally reject them since they are a difficult load) and they just plain sound good. This is not to say they can't amaze you with a really clear 3-D sound with smooth and realistic sounding voices, etc.

I am aware of the upper midrange problem and I agree that it could be improved on, but it is nothing I complain about (or even notice half the time) and fixing it while still maintaining the other qualities of the Kit281, in other words adding an AV5, would cost a good bit of money. The Kit281 has a little different purpose than the GRs, I think. I think it compromises some aspects of the sound quality in order to get more output and almost full range capability, which works for me.

Anyway, that's my testimonial. I am sure others beg to differ. Posted Image

#13 of 71 OFFLINE   Brian Bunge

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Posted June 09 2003 - 08:56 AM

I still want a pair of towers using the A/V-1+'s with dual 8's in the bottom. Could put to shame a lot of 3-way towers on the market!Posted Image
Brian Bunge
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#14 of 71 OFFLINE   Michael R Price

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Posted June 09 2003 - 09:33 AM

Brian,

I want a Kit281 with an AV5 midrange crossed in! Oh, and 10db higher efficiency would be nice. Posted Image

#15 of 71 OFFLINE   Gary Joe

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Posted June 09 2003 - 09:58 AM

Adire does have a 3 way tower in the works, to match their LCC. I'm waiting on that to come out before I make my final decision. Originally Adire was shooting to have it available in March, but then they moved to their new location. I amagine since the Tumult is just now being shipped it will be a while before their 3 way tower kits are complete. I'll em them and find out.
"Boy...You got a panty on your head!" -Raising Arizona

#16 of 71 OFFLINE   Dan Pawlowski

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Posted June 09 2003 - 10:06 AM

I think a sealed kit251 would go quite nicely with my Tumult. So...Adire....Where is it??

Dan

That what is gained in practice must be expressed mathematically, otherwise you have gained nothing.

#17 of 71 OFFLINE   Brian Tatnall

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Posted June 09 2003 - 10:25 AM

A lot of people have mentioed good things about the GR midrange, but nothing about the tweeter. Is there a better option for the tweeter? Do those of you who have it like it?

Dan
Thanks for the reply again. Scan-speak...I wish. Dillon's stuff just seems out of my price range, but I did notice that both Danny and he chose Hiquphon tweeters. So I looked at them at zayltron and WOW those are impressive. Have you had any experience with them? Danny's GR130/Hiquphon kit looks really interesting, but I don't know if I'd be please using it as a center channel also. What do you think? The Hiquphon's also seem priced high at $90 for the kit price he was suggesting...is there something I'm missing? Your site says, "Home of the MBOW1" is this a common design or has it won awards or something? I like the usher 2 way's 7" displacement and it makes me feel a little more stable in my investment. Would you suggest this kit over the MB0W1? Again I run into the center channel problem with this kit.

Bob and Dan,

I emailed selahaudio.com for everything and they had a very quick reply. I'm a bit of a bass addict from car audio and I think that if I built the RC2 I would be dissapointed. Moving up to the MG95 has a much nicer woofer with a nice xmax, but the 5.25's still scare me a bit especially only one. For $315 I don't know if this would be my best option especially since it is in the price range of the AV1+.

Chris Tsutsui,

Thanks for the reply. I am not in a rush. It would be silly for me to buy speakers I'll have for five years in a rush. Posted Image So is the review in June or July? I'll wait either way. Do you think you will be able to tell the sonicap upgrade is worth it? How about blackhole?

Danny Richie,

Wasn't expecting to hear a reply from you, but thank you. I have a few questions and I'll try to stay away from asking you comparisons. Do you expect to make the AV-1+ with a M-130/16 so that it has an 8ohm load? I fear for my TXSR500 at 4ohm's while I await cash to buy a preamp for the Adcom 5006 Posted Image.

Quote:
At the LDSG site the *** are based on positive feedback received about XYZ kit. It is not a rating based on performance.

Isn't it correct to assume that positive feedback is partially due to good performance? One of the only reasons I can think a negative bit of feedback would be given is poor performance. I'm probably not as familiar with LDSG though.

Dan Pawlowski,

The reason the drivers are being compared is because they are in the same price range when it comes to kits.

Michael,

Thanks for your input all of it is appreciated. Can you be a little more indepth concerning what you think the finer points of the 281's are?

Brian,

First, nice name. Second those would be killer(out of my price range, but killer). I'm suprised you didn't chime in a little more. Knowing that you have heard the AV5 and AV8 and that you are very familiar with GR. I'd be more than interested to hear more of your input.

Thanks everyone.

#18 of 71 OFFLINE   Shawn Solar

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Posted June 09 2003 - 11:02 AM

Give me a week or two. I'll give my thoughts on how the av1+'s compare against my now sold and gone paradigm reference 40's. slowly but surely I'll get them done.

#19 of 71 OFFLINE   Dan Wesnor

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Posted June 09 2003 - 11:02 AM

Brian,
I think you have me and Dennis and Danny and Dennis a bit confused. The MBOWI (Dennis' design) is well reviewed, but I'm not aware of any awards that it has won, nor any competitions it has been entered in. I'm sure any of Dennis' pricing comments were made prior to the recent price hike of the OW1 tweeter.

I have heard the OWII, the OWI's more efficient brother, and I do think it is the best tweeter I've ever heard. It is very strong for a 3/4" tweeter, but because of it's small size, it still can't be used in every application. It needs to be crossed at 2500Hz or above. (This is the only reason I chose not to use it with the ScanSpeaks.)

I haven't heard the Ushers but I'd like to. I've got a project cooking right now that's overdue, so I haven't had a chance to play with them. However, the Usher drivers themselves have gotten good reviews. The Ushers are a different animal than the MBOWI's. The Ushers are meant for power and depth, while the MBOWI's are meant for more refined listening. I would really have a hard time recommending between them without knowing how they would be used. I think that, with a subwoofer, most of the strengths of the Usher woofer would not be used.

#20 of 71 OFFLINE   Danny Richie

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Posted June 09 2003 - 11:06 AM

Quote:
Do you expect to make the AV-1+ with a M-130/16 so that it has an 8ohm load?


Yes. It will be the A/V-3 floor standing model.

Then there will also be the A/V-3C. This is simply the same speaker in an optimal sealed enclosure that is about the same size (actually barely smaller) as the current A/V-1+ ported enclosure. This version will not play down as low of coarse, but will make a nice 8 ohm shielded center channel.

Quote:
Isn't it correct to assume that positive feedback is partially due to good performance?


This is true, but according to that site a fewer number of stars could mean just a lack of general feedback too, and not that there was "X" number of good verses bad.

So I wouldn't judge the performance of the Adire kits based on that because they have fewer stars. It just means that they have had less positive feedback on them.

Are you also aware that we have demo units out there in circulation? You can have your own free in home audition of our speakers and compare them to anything you want.

Oh yea...

Quote:
Danny's GR130/Hiquphon kit looks really interesting


Those kits are not ours.

That is one of Dennis Murphy's designs. I am sure it sounds great. Dennis has used our woofers in a lot of different designs.

We have a lot of hobbyist and other companies using our woofers in their designs all the time.


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