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DV-45A Sub level question


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65 replies to this topic

#1 of 66 Matthew Anderson

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Posted June 07 2003 - 01:23 PM

I just got my Pioneer DV-45A yesterday and everythings sounds fine with DVD Audio and SACD except that I can't seem to control the sub level in the player. I am using the test tones from Sound & Vision's HT Tuneup disc and the sub level on my sound meter reads the same no matter where I set the level in the player. I am using the 80Hz crossover in my Outlaw 950 preamp for the 5.1 input. Thanks for any help.

#2 of 66 Kevin C Brown

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Posted June 07 2003 - 07:18 PM

You can try this: Make sure that you have hit the 6 ch bypass button on the Outlaw's remote to make sure you're not actually listening to the DD digital feed.

Another thing to check, is try to engage the actual sub test tone on the 45a, and see (hear! Posted Image ) what happens when you change the level in the player. Just be aware that the 45a's sub test tone will probably not sound loud enough.
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ...

#3 of 66 Matthew Anderson

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Posted June 08 2003 - 08:00 AM

Thanks Kevin,
The 6 channel direct is engaged for sure but I have not used any of the test tones in the player itself, just the ones on my calibration disc. I'll try what you suggested. Thanks again.

#4 of 66 Matthew Anderson

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Posted June 09 2003 - 02:22 AM

Kevin,
I tried to engage the test tone for the sub in the 45A but you can't do that. It only puts out test tones for the other speakers. I am going to see if I can adjust the levels for the other speakers using the players adjustments. My sub level is just too high when playing DVD Audio or SACDs.

#5 of 66 Brian L

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Posted June 09 2003 - 02:47 AM

Quote:
I tried to engage the test tone for the sub in the 45A but you can't do that. It only puts out test tones for the other speakers.

It can be done, but there is a trick to it....which escapes me right now! You may have to manually move the cursor to the sub in the "levels" area?

But when you do get it to work, you will note that it does not sound much like bass. I actually have e-mails from Pioneer (when I was harassing them about the relative low level of sub/LFE channel) that states that the sub tones in the player are faulty.

I ended up using the Chesky Ultimate DVD-A disk as my system calibration reference.

BGL

#6 of 66 Steve_AS

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Posted June 09 2003 - 03:02 AM

Quote:
Quote:
I tried to engage the test tone for the sub in the 45A but you can't do that. It only puts out test tones for the other speakers.


It can be done, but there is a trick to it....which escapes me right now! You may have to manually move the cursor to the sub in the "levels" area?

But when you do get it to work, you will note that it does not sound much like bass. I actually have e-mails from Pioneer (when I was harassing them about the relative low level of sub/LFE channel) that states that the sub tones in the player are faulty.

I ended up using the Chesky Ultimate DVD-A disk as my system calibration reference.

At the top of the speaker level menu, there's an option to run a test tone sweep, speaker by speaker. For some reason this doens't include the sub.
BUT:
Each speaker level toggle has a test tone icon next to it too. IIRC you can select the one next to the sub, and turn it on, to set the sub level with a meter.

#7 of 66 Matthew Anderson

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Posted June 09 2003 - 03:44 AM

Thanks for tip about the sub level test tone. I will try that and see if it activates the tone and the abillity to adjust the level.

#8 of 66 Brian L

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Posted June 09 2003 - 04:05 AM

Quote:
Thanks for tip about the sub level test tone. I will try that and see if it activates the tone and the abillity to adjust the level.


I know you will be able to engage the tone, but it is NOT accurate. Here is what I got from Pioneer:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Problem: The sound level of the Test tone for Subwoofer out is lower than the other output. Cause : Shaping noise that is designated by Dolby is used for the Test tone. This noise includes less low frequency signal. Therefore, the sound level of Subwoofer out (only low frequency is output) is lower than the others. This only happen when the Test tone is output. In case of DVD playback signal, there is no problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

While I agree with them that the test tone is FUBAR, the overall level of the sub channel is also down below the main channels. This is an issue with almost every universal player. You can compensate with channel trims in most systems but its an issue.

Some users have set the main channels at 0 and the sub/LFE at +6, but another issue with the player (sighted in the S&V Review) is the ALL analog output channels are a bit below what industry standard. I run my 45A at fixed, and adjust levels in my receiver. You may or may not be able to do that.

Perhaps more info that you are looking for at the moment.....

BGL

#9 of 66 Matthew Anderson

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Posted June 09 2003 - 04:47 AM

Brian,
Thanks for the additional information. I'm not really that concerned about the accuracy of the tone. I just want to be able to turn down the level of the sub when using the analog outs. So far, adjusting the sub level in the player is having no effect on the sub. I also read the review in S&V but so far I have had no problem with overall output. It is plenty loud for me when using 5.1 analog material. When I get home tonight I will see what I can do. Thanks.

#10 of 66 Guy Robinson

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Posted June 09 2003 - 06:13 AM

I set the levels to "fixed" and then I adjust the subwoofer volume on the back of the subwoofer. I use the 6 channel analog for everything. So 2 controls to change depending on the disc; volume level on the receiver and volume level on the back of the subwoofer.

#11 of 66 Brian L

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Posted June 09 2003 - 06:18 AM

One more potentially dumb question Matt...

You have the player set to all speakers large/sub on, correct? That would be the way to go using the 950 as your crossover.

FWIW, I have noted that my player has twice of its on accord changed settings on me. The first was when it switched from Fixed to Variable output (I noticed that I had to crank the volume higher than normal), and the second, it switched from having 5.1 outputs enable to just having the 2ch outputs on.

Very weird. I think I may have read another user account of something similar.

My point bringing that up? It won't hurt to make sure your player has remembered your speaker settings.

BGL

#12 of 66 Matthew Anderson

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Posted June 09 2003 - 06:32 AM

Brian,
My speakers are definitely set on large and sub on in the player. I will also double check the 5.1 setting and the fixed/variable. I'll see what happens tonight. Thanks.

#13 of 66 Steve_AS

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Posted June 09 2003 - 07:24 AM

Quote:
Some users have set the main channels at 0 and the sub/LFE at +6, but another issue with the player (sighted in the S&V Review) is the ALL analog output channels are a bit below what industry standard. I run my 45A at fixed, and adjust levels in my receiver. You may or may not be able to do that.

"Fixed" in the DV-45a is the equivalent of setting all the speakers to +6.

How far below standard did S&V say the 0 level was?

#14 of 66 Steve_AS

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Posted June 09 2003 - 07:58 AM

[erroneous post deleted by author]

#15 of 66 Brian L

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Posted June 09 2003 - 09:38 AM

Quote:
"Fixed" in the DV-45a is the equivalent of setting all the speakers to +6.


Yup, so says the manual. It does not get you to +10 on your LFE, but it gets you close enough that you may be able to do the rest with input channel trim or sub gain.

Quote:
How far below standard did S&V say the 0 level was?


Will need to dig out the magazine. It appears the review is NOT online. It was low enough that they commented in the lab section that it resulted in somewhat elevated S/N ratio, if memory serves. FWIW, it is not an issue in my rig.

Quote:
Unfortunately, that's the wrong thing to do for the DV-45a *if* you are using DVD-A or SACD as a source. For these sources, setting the mains to LARGE eliminates sub output, period, even if the source is 5.1, even if the sub is set to ON. I can see that being an annoyance for those with large speakers . ;>


Not sure I concur with that. Keep in mind that I am running into an ICBM, and the 45A is set all large/sub on. That said, I should think this would be equivalent to running into a 950 which does have BM on the 6CH in's which is what Matt is doing (I think).

For example, using the Telarc Tribute Weather Report DVD-A, I can tweak the LFE control (which is separate from the overall sub level control) on the ICBM, and hear a distinct reduction in the bass, which would be logical, in that I am dialing out ONLY .1 content while leaving the redirected main channel bass in the sub output. That would imply that I am sending .1 content from the player to the ICBM.

Quote:
This means that a DD 4.0 recording (such as found on some EMI discs) will not output anything from the sub if the mains are LARGE and the sub ON


Agreed, but actually, I don't think it will send anything to sub if the mains are small/sub on either. But again, the ICBM or the 950 (assuming BM functionality of the 6CH in) fixes the problem.

The last time I tested with a Chesky 4.0 disc (with the ICBM bypassed), I definitely did not get anything out of the sub with the 45A set to all small/sub on. That correlated with the Chesky LFE test (which encodes bass on just the .1 channel). In that test, all large/sub off gets nothing, which correlates with your comment that bass is NOT redirected from the LFE to the mains.

But again (I sound like an Outlaw salesman) the ICBM makes all that right.

BGL

#16 of 66 Matthew Anderson

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Posted June 09 2003 - 10:57 AM

Brian,
I agree with your last post about the large spk/sub on setting. This has to the correct way to the use the fixed 80Hz BM of the 950 when playing material from the 5.1 analog outputs of the 45A.

#17 of 66 Guy Robinson

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Posted June 09 2003 - 11:52 AM

Quote:
Unfortunately, that's the wrong thing to do for the DV-45a *if* you are using DVD-A or SACD as a source. For these sources, setting the mains to LARGE eliminates sub output, period, even if the source is 5.1, even if the sub is set to ON. I can see that being an annoyance for those with large speakers . ;>

Wrong Answer:
When just using the 45a (ie - no ICBM) when you set the mains to large the bass in the subwoofer still represents anything that was specifically mixed the the subwoofer channel plus any bass from any of the other speakers that are still set to small. I run my gear most of the time with all speakers set to large and I still have subwoofer output as long as the disc was originally mixed with output to the subwoofer. When I play that SACD Surround of Bach's Organ Works By E Power Biggs the 25 hz pedal notes are very much in the subwoofer (as well as in the other speakers). If you really want to test out your bass pick up that disc.

#18 of 66 Michael Botvinick

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Posted June 09 2003 - 01:35 PM

Question,

I am thinking about a 45 or 47ai (trying to justiry the $1000 for the 47ai or a Denon 2500). Seems like you guys should know the difference between the 45 and the 47 beside the special digital ourput which I would not use, what is the difference?

Thanks,
Michael
mbotvinick98@earthlink.net

#19 of 66 Lewis Besze

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Posted June 09 2003 - 04:55 PM

The 47AI would make sense if you mate it with the flagship Elite receiver[digital link],if you not planning to get,or not already owned[receiver] then it would be harder to justify the price difference IMO.
I think KCB owned both,I'm sure he'll chime in.

#20 of 66 Steve_AS

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Posted June 09 2003 - 05:11 PM

I double checked my DV-45a results, and, damn me, I'd misread them. Actually they are more consistent than I thought. I have corrected the original test post, and am reposting the three summary findings here as well:

I) turning OFF the sub in the speaker installation menu always eliminates sub output from the 45a sub jack.

II) if mains are set to LARGE, there is no sub output *unless* the source has a .1 channel (AND/OR you have set other speakers to small, as per Guy's correction, though I haven't tested that)

III) if mains are set to SMALL, stereo (2.0), 3/2 (5.0), and 3/2.1 (5.1) tracks are bass managed: bass is directed from small speakers to sub, along with any LFE. 2/2 (4.0) Dolby Digital tracks are also bass managed. 2/2 DVD-A tracks are *not* bass managed. I don't know how 2/2 SACD material behaves. [Addendum: 3/2 DVD-A material on ELP's Brain Salad Surgery is bass managed properly)

Brian, as per (II), your results with the ICBM were correct; with *any* material that has a .1 channel -- including DVD-A and SACD -- you are getting .1 channel output when mains are set to LARGE (and sub is ON).

With mains set to SMALL, the DV-45a only has problems with 4.0 mixes: specifically, DVD-A 4.0, but *not* Dolby Digital 4.0. It'd be interesting to see what would happen to a 4.0 SACD. An ICBM solves the DVD-A 4.0 problem either way.

Sorry again for the confusion.


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