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#181 of 207 OFFLINE   Rex Bachmann

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Posted June 01 2003 - 01:51 PM

Norm wrote (post #180):

Quote:
There can be more than one prototype, just look at Data, B4, Lore!


Yes, there can be earlier models of anything. (Technically, only the first can be the "prototype"). If you look at the link I provide, I think you'll see that I'm well aware of that. The point I was making, however, is that the Star Trek producers have traditionally, and do still in this film, use the word "prototype" exactly as I defined it. (That's my statement of their definition of the term.) In any event, like it or not that explains why there is no "other" personal transporter to be had in the film, as someone asked.

Somewhat silly, I know, but that's one of the strictures the story is working under, and, so, one has to recognize and acknowledge it.
"Delenda est . . . . "

 


#182 of 207 OFFLINE   Rex Bachmann

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Posted June 01 2003 - 01:56 PM

Andrew Bunk wrote (post #100):

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OK, a little off topic, but why is Generations viewed so harshly?

Todd K wrote (post #107):

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And I agree, the nexus was too much of a writer's out. The movie could easily take the award for most plot holes in the series.

Thomas Newton wrote (post #133):

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1. Nexus New Age garbage.

Although I'm not as harsh a critic as some, I, too, feel that the the scientifically incredible (as in 'unbelievable') concept and "realization" of the so-called Nexus, the science-fictional nub of this (alleged) "science-fiction film", pretty much precluded this movie from having any heft or sf respectability. And, though Picard's family situation is believably presented and his own part played well, these elements don't mix at all well with the Nexus business or the Klingon intrigues and battles. The whole thing simply never meshes properly.

Far worse, though, in my book, was the gutlessness of Paramount management in having to do---obligatorily, as they seemed to feel---a "torch-passing" film in the first place. This tainted the whole endeavor from the get-go, as far as I'm concerned. The "Next Generation" and the TOS-crew should never have met. It was merely a crutch for shaky Paramount decision-makers. The entire project was informed by "risk-management"-mentality and this produced a half-baked, at times hoky film.


John_Berger wrote (post #114):

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Kirk's actual death (was that really needed in order to pass the torch???), and a very weak captain of the Enterprise-B just ruined [Generations] for me . . .

Norm wrote (post #122):

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That was done to make us believe Kirk should take charge.

Not only that, but the Star Trek films, especially the TOS-crew adventures, are informed by a seeming need to show how almost everyone else in Star Fleet is an idiot except the ("real") Enterprise crew (the big exception being Captain Sulu and his crew from The Undiscovered Country). This is usually played for cheap, (presumably) crowd-pleasing laughs. (On this, see especially The Lurch toward---er, The Search for Spock.) It's one of the continuing threads in the films that make me devalue them so.

Andrew Grall wrote (post #109):

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I couldn't get over one thing in Generations...

I thought it was some kind of joke when Kirk died. It was "bridge on the captain" instead of "captain on the bridge." Oh well...

[Ha! Ha!] Sounds loopy to me and I'm not sure how serious you are, but there's at least a nub of truth here. I thought the dialog had more than a bit of a self-referential in-joking to it. Kirk: "It's been fun. . . ." Ugggh!
"Delenda est . . . . "

 


#183 of 207 OFFLINE   Norm

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Posted June 01 2003 - 02:11 PM

Quote:
"torch-passing" film in the first place. This tainted the whole endeavor from the get-go, as far as I'm concerned. The "Next Generation" and the TOS-crew should never have met.


I agree, its even set up by Roddenberry that the two shows won't meet, so what does Berman & Co. do, the exact opposite!

I think Lucas is falling into the same trap, he's got
Chewy
in Episode 3. Even when we get to Tattoine for Episode 4 we've already been to that planet and its no longer new & fresh!

#184 of 207 OFFLINE   Norm

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Posted June 01 2003 - 02:15 PM

I would like to add that Sulu ended up being Captain to please the Fanboys. What happened to the other Captain of the Excelsior? They should of at least given Sulu a different ship.

#185 of 207 OFFLINE   Rex Bachmann

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Posted June 01 2003 - 03:26 PM

Jonny P wrote (post #117):

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The problem with the NextGen crew in movies is that they all developed into very strong characters in the series that lasted 7 seasons. The Original Series was different. It only lasted three, and as such, there wasn't the time for development of each individual.

Not quite true. There was time; there just wasn't the will. From all I've read, Mr. Shatner believed that the whole TOS shebang was about him and his character, and only reluctantly shared time even with Mr. Nimoy. If I'm not mistaken, there were tales, whether true or not, about Shatner's having script battles to make sure the "lesser characters", Scotty, Chekov, Uhura, and Sulu, didn't have more screen time and dialog at what he, Mr. Shatner, felt was Kirk's expense. I would have to go back and re-read old books in order to be certain, let alone more specific, but I believe there was some deal even involving the first motion picture, whereby there was a contractual stipulation about who got the most screen time: Nimoy could have no more than Shatner, or something like that.

And the idea of focussing on a black or an Asiatic was just "not where it's at"---to borrow the parlance of that era---even in late 60's network television. (Hey, maybe Enterprise is being truer to its roots than some of us have been giving it credit for!)

As far as the theatrical presentations are concerned, I've said it before, and I'll say it once again: there is no valid comparison between the TOS-crew movies and those of the TNG-crew.

Joseph Bolus wrote (post #127):

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I *finally* had an opportunity to view the film last night ... and . . . . I made the mistake of viewing the deleted scenes.

. . . that first deleted scene just *had* to be in the movie!!. That deleted scene was Star Trek through-and-through, . . . .

But it is a very "talky" scene, which would "slow down" the story, if included. This movie, like most others of its ilk, was made for general audiences, and most of them demand "more flash 'n' boom!" Not hard to see why they removed it; they have a running-time cut to make, believe it or not.

John Nelson wrote (post #153):

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I also agree the movie would have been better with those two deleted scenes included. Is there any real commercial advantage in changing a movie from 120 to 117 minutes at the loss of such important dramatic exposition?

They don't care about dramatic exposition. ("Here's the box. Shove the 'product' in to fit. Next!!!")

Quote:
The last deleted scene, which would have taken place at the very end of the movie, also had to be in the movie! That scene was also "for the fans" and would have sent everybody out of the theater in a much better frame of mind.


JonZ wrote (post #135):

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I agree. . . . Riker playing a joke with the new No1 SHOULD have been left in the film.

Neil V wrote (post #138):

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I rather liked the alternate(?) ending that showed the introduction of the new first officer(who may be in the next movie if ther is one), and the joke about the seatbelts wich has been alterted to in numerous reviews.

Well, I have mixed feelings on this. I might like better a more "upbeat" ending myself, but I'm not sure this would be it. The joke didn't come off that funny, and, in fact, "Commander Madden", or whatever his name is, comes off to me as mighty stupid. At the very least, I would expect a Star Fleet "command officer" to have the sense enough to ask his new captain, in private (!!!), whether he wished to be addressed by his first name (while on duty, no less), rather than being duped by his predecessor into charging right into such a faux pas. Would you want this man negotiating for your ship in a quasi-hostile encounter with the Romulans or the Ferengi? . . . . The scene, as it was presented on the disc, would have played for cheap laughs. Uh-uh, not interested.

Frank@N wrote (post #142):

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Take the extended brawl between Riker and the Reman Viceroy. It goes on forever (without a word spoken) and you completely forget that the Viceroy 'raped' Troi. Riker never says a word. Action fodder for the non-verbal generation.

Again, dialog would have extended the running time of the scenes, which management and theater owners don't want. I do think that Riker's pursuit of the Viceroy bespeaks a bit of a "revenge" subtext. After all, Worf could just as easily have pursued the Viceroy into the Jeffries tubes as Riker. Yet, it is Riker who tells Worf, "Cover me," and goes for it. I think that fact is no accident.


Quote:
Nemesis . . . . This is the youngest villain yet (Tom Hardy) and the dramatic heft is definitely missing. No Montalban here.

Mr. Baird remarks in an interview that he wanted the actor to "be as young as possible" in order to fill the role of the "rebel without a cause" in the film. I, too, believe that, not only dramatic heft, but also story credibility is sacrificed with this casting. I have yet to hear from the film or from any of its outtakes why the Remans would choose this young human to lead them into a war with the Federation.


James Davis wrote (post #154):

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I also liked the scene with Crusher and Picard. She gives him advice and mentions he is angry because he lost uniqueness since he isn't the only one anymore.

I like her advice, and thought it helped explain Picards doubts in himself.

Unless I missed a scene, I think you must be speaking of the deleted scene featuring Picard and Counselor Troi. Beverly Crusher has no such scene in this movie, to my knowledge or recollection.

Dan Hitchman wrote (post #159):

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Why didn't Lor show up to f-ck around with the crew instead? That would have been 100 times more interesting. . . . to bring . . . back some of the old concepts of the TV show. . . . The moral the writers kept getting at (ignored in the movies) was that he really didn't need it; Data was fine being himself. Lor craved it, but it turned him sour and finally insane because his positronic brain couldn't accept it.

What I always got out of the tv show version of the Data/Lore dynamic was that Lore was created first and had the capacity for feelings and emotions, and that it worked all too well in producing a jealous, insecure, resentful ---see "Brothers"---, covetous, and just plain nasty (artificial) offspring that wanted to usurp its "father" and subjugate or destroy its (fearful) human neighbors. Lore feels the need to lie to Data about their "birth" order in order to induce a "feeling" and doubt in the other as to his own adequacy (TNG "Datalore"), the reverse of "Dad/Mom always liked you best". The "need" for an "emotion chip" (as opposed to the desirability of one ("Descent")) isn't really addressed in the TNG tv-series, to my recollection. Nor is any connexion (even implicitly?) established there between Lore's chip and his unwelcome, and often erratic, actions.

Bryan Tuck wrote (post #163):

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. . . [Logan] set out to write a script for the fans, and Baird tried to make it stand alone. But Baird was coming from a newbie point-of-view; maybe Berman should have explained things better to him.

And you're assuming Rick Berman could have "explained things better to him"? A tough sell, if you look regularly at Enterprise.

That brings me to another point that, this Mr. Logan, if he's such a Star Trek fan from way back, should have taken note of, but seems not to have. One of the oft voiced complaints at the time of Nemesis' release is the movie's neglect of the political side of all this. The story plays out in a complete vacuum to the Star Trek universe. References were made at the time to Romulan politics by complaintants like myself, but it occurs to me now that there's a much more comprehensive aspect of the interstellar politics that's been totally ignored in the story.

By now, it's been well established that the Federation is in a "soft alliance" with none other than the Klingon Empire. (Anyone remember that little war with the Dominion?) So, if the point of Shinzon's attack on Earth is the "decapitation" and fatal wounding of the Federation---there goes our "terracentricism" again---, and in the name of the Romulan Star Empire to boot, how long do you think the Klingons, mortal enemies of the Romulans,---and no doubt next on the list, if the play succeeds---would stand by and allow this to happen? The politics of such a move against Earth as is attempted here would have to be thoroughly calculated, and the military contigencies prepared for, long before the scenario in this film could be set into motion with any prospect of success. None of this is even hinted at in the film, as far as I know. Hence, a vacuum.

How big a fan is this Mr. Logan, anyhow?
"Delenda est . . . . "

 


#186 of 207 OFFLINE   David Lambert

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Posted June 01 2003 - 11:01 PM

Rex, a VERY intelligent post, and an excellent point at the end.

As far as your recollection goes about Shatner's inclination to hog airtime: yes. All true, every word you said. I've talked for 15-20 years with people who saw it personally, and told stories...none of which it is my place to share. But you can read Harlan Ellison's book "The City On The Edge Of Forever", in which he presents his side of the story of that episode's making and gives us the original script for that show, which he won awards for. He recounts how he met Shatner and showed him the script and Shatner pretty much immediately started line-counting! Posted Image Page 42 of my copy of the book.
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#187 of 207 ONLINE   Bryan Tuck

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Posted June 02 2003 - 12:57 AM

Quote:
By now, it's been well established that the Federation is in a "soft alliance" with none other than the Klingon Empire. (Anyone remember that little war with the Dominion?) So, if the point of Shinzon's attack on Earth is the "decapitation" and fatal wounding of the Federation---there goes our "terracentricism" again---, and in the name of the Romulan Star Empire to boot, how long do you think the Klingons, mortal enemies of the Romulans,---and no doubt next on the list, if the play succeeds---would stand by and allow this to happen? The politics of such a move against Earth as is attempted here would have to be thoroughly calculated, and the military contigencies prepared for, long before the scenario in this film could be set into motion with any prospect of success. None of this is even hinted at in the film, as far as I know. Hence, a vacuum.

How big a fan is this Mr. Logan, anyhow?

This is a very good point, Rex, and I must admit, not one I'd thought much about. However, judging from some of the interviews with Logan I've read (although there's nothing specific about this), it's pretty clear that he is a big fan, and I imagine he would have loved to bring something like that into the story. However, I imagine anything like that probably would have been derailed by Berman. (Your point regarding his handling of Enterprise is well-taken.)

The foreword to the novellization of Nemesis also reveals that Logan remembered more about Trek history than Berman and Spiner did. During story conferences, Logan reminded them about the episode with Data's "mother," which they had apparently forgotten about.

That's just one example, of course. However, I do agree with you that playing up the political tensions would have made for a much more interesting movie. (It would have been great to bring Spock and/or Sela into the picture.) I would love to see a mini-series or even some movies dealing with a post-Dominion War federation. That's not likely to happen, of course, but we can always hope.
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#188 of 207 ONLINE   Nelson Au

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Posted June 02 2003 - 04:36 AM

I've read Ellison's book and Shatner's and Nimoy's, Takei's and Doohan's books recalling the days of TOS. While there seems to be from how I interprete things, Shatner was merely very self absorbed at the time and trying to be sure a good product was made, and he admits that and that he was not out to try to derail his colleagues, it was merely from the way a "TV star" is treated with such kid gloves. The people around him who continue to inflate his ego and status cause he's the star. Unfortunately, it led to hard feelings for the other actors.

Regarding contracts, I've read and heard both Shatner and Nimoy say that they both had contracts that said, if he gets this, I get that too and visa versa. And this was in regards to the films, but it could have gone as far back as the TOS later years.

Regarding Logan and Nemesis, I've read in other places and here that Nimoy was contacted and was to be a part of the original story, but negotiations fell through. Probably Nimoy was smart to not get involved, he's very protective of Trek and I bet it was not about money, but about how the character Spock was to be used. He must have felt Logan or Berman was not being true to the characters. But that's my guess. (where's Tino? He seemed to have a very advanced copy of the script ages ago that I refused to try to find on the web)

The lack of a more complex plotting with the politics and other races in Nemesis I think has already been well addressed here, it's film aimed at the general audience, and it's easier to focus on one race to attack, then involve the Klingon Empire. However, I liked the political plotting that Lucas used in Attack of the Clones. Perhaps Berman saw that and felt that it was too complex for a general audience to get. (And Lucas knows he's doing a third film that explains more and wraps up that story arc) Nemesis is supposed to be a mindless action flick, in either the Studio or Berman's eyes.

Nelson

#189 of 207 OFFLINE   DeathStar1

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Posted June 02 2003 - 05:52 AM

Its also one of the few films where I actually felt the characters were "in danger" so to speak - Baird knows how to put an action sequence together.>>>

Agreed on this. But also probably because I went in wanting to know NOTHING about the movie and try to be surprised for a change Posted Image.

#190 of 207 OFFLINE   DeathStar1

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Posted June 02 2003 - 05:57 AM

I think Lucas is falling into the same trap, he's got
Chewy
in Episode 3. Even when we get to Tattoine for Episode 4 we've already been to that planet and it no longer new & fresh!


Yes, but
Like Vulcans, Wookies live for at least 200 years, maby more. And who knows how old Han is, there might be a chance he'd be in as a kid cameo....


#191 of 207 OFFLINE   DeathStar1

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Posted June 02 2003 - 06:04 AM

Personally, I think it would have been great if they'd brought Spock and Sela into the picture.>>>

I'm surprised there was no scene with at least a mention of it. If there is another movie, it would be nice if he could have a guest role as Vulcan ambassador to Romulus and Remus.

#192 of 207 OFFLINE   Sean Laughter

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Posted June 02 2003 - 06:17 AM

I've always felt Sela would have made a better "Nemesis" in this film and would have brought some political heft to the plot strictly out of necessity.

Whether Denise Crosby could pull the role off well enough is up for debate though as the performance would have to be stronger than what she turned in for the character during the series.

#193 of 207 OFFLINE   Jonny P

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Posted June 02 2003 - 09:45 AM

I, like many, feel that the best of the Trek films with "The Wrath of Khan"...

Why? Because we liked the villain. In many respects, it was a subconscious visceral feeling in the minds of Trek fans that they really wanted to see the Enterprise and its crew suffer.

Some would say, "But how can you say this?"

I can say this because sci-fi fans love movies where their characters take a beating. That is why people love "The Empire Strikes Back" so much. Luke gets his hand chopped off, Han Solo is frozen in a brick, Threepio gets blown apart, and the rebels suffer.

In ST:2, Spock gets killed, Kirk needs glasses, the Enterprise takes a beating, Scotty's nephew dies, the crew aboard Regula 1 gets slaughtered, and there are those nasty ear worms.

The problem is that in most of the NextGen movies, no one seems like they are truly suffering. They all look like they are at a class reunion going through their paces.

The idea of Data getting hurt didn't bother me much because he is, after all, an android. I know he developed into an interesting character, but he is a robot who can download all of his data (no pun intended) to a computer.

Okay...Rick Berman's next brainchild...

They bring the character of Harry Mudd back. Have it become a situation where Harry has decided to kidnap all of the women from the Star Trek Universe to become his own personal harem. The bald actor that originally played Mudd may be dead, so I would suggest a "casting switcheroo" and have Shatner pull off the toupee, paste on a mustache, and play Mudd. I would have him do a bunch of his spoken-word songs throughout the film.

We find out later that it really is Kirk, he went nuts believing his was still the most virile man in the universe, and wanted all of the babes for himself (he got that virus that affected everyone in "Naked Time" and "Naked Now"). He thinks he is Mudd, but it is merely a memory from his early days as a Captain.

The Federation, pissed that they don't have any good looking chicks to ease their tension (and appease all the fanboys out there), decide to go after Mudd/Kirk...who is flying about the galaxy in the same green Bird of Prey from Star Trek 4 (Kirk/Mudd even kidnaps the whale named Gracie).

They pick up Uhura along the way. Uhura and Shatner, later in the film, pick up where they left off in "Plato's Stepchildren".

Kirk spends much of the film trying to find a way to get "assimilated" by 7 of 9. He tries to woo her with a spoken monologue version of "I'm Too Sexy", but Tasha Yar (still covered in oil from that oil slick that ate her) gets annoyed by his advances on the Borg woman and belts him in the jaw.

In the movie's climatic finish, an aging Spock has to do a mind meld to find out what happened to his former captain. He finds out Kirk/Mudd tried to perform the act of pon far with Saavik, gets insanely jealous, and performs the Vulcan death grip on his old friend.

As he is dying, Kirk/Mudd recalls a line from "Generations" when he says, "It was fun" and that is the end of our old captain.

Meanwhile, all of the women from the Star Trek Universe are sent to the Enterprise. Data returns for a cameo and informs them all that he is "functional in every way"...they all say "to heck" with the others, and decide to become Data's personal harem.

Great movie...an even better DVD...

"Star Trek: Stuck in the Mudd"

#194 of 207 OFFLINE   David Lambert

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Posted June 02 2003 - 01:18 PM

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#195 of 207 OFFLINE   Jonny P

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Posted June 02 2003 - 01:42 PM

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Whew...I am glad Lambert was amused...

#196 of 207 OFFLINE   Rex Bachmann

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Posted June 02 2003 - 03:01 PM

Nelson Au wrote (post #188):

Quote:
The lack of a more complex plotting with the politics and other races in Nemesis I think has already been well addressed here, it's film aimed at the general audience, and it's easier to focus on one race to attack, then involve the Klingon Empire. However, I liked the political plotting that Lucas used in Attack of the Clones. Perhaps Berman saw that and felt that it was too complex for a general audience to get. (And Lucas knows he's doing a third film that explains more and wraps up that story arc) Nemesis is supposed to be a mindless action flick, in either the Studio or Berman's eyes.

Well, it's not that I would expect---or want---them to actually bring the Klingons into the movie, just that some recognition needed to be expressed on the part of the Romulans that their actions might---heck, would surely---bring the Klingon Empire into the conflict eventually, and a statement from them on how they planned to deal with it. I know all too well that two hours are not long enough time to make a truly coherent, yet complex movie plot of the type I would ideally like to have seen, but---damn it!---the political complexities---Who's on whose side and with what motivation? Can they be trusted when one's head is turned? etc.---of DS 9's Dominion War arc and Bablyon 5's Shadow War, respectively, are exactly what made those two television shows at times such absolutely compelling viewing. It wasn't a bunch of models firing light beams at each other, that's for sure (although that was tremendous gravy to top off the build-up).
"Delenda est . . . . "

 


#197 of 207 OFFLINE   Lloyd White

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Posted June 02 2003 - 04:08 PM

Quote:
How big a fan is this Mr. Logan, anyhow? Rex Bachmann on June 2nd, 2003 at 04:36 AM


From interviews that I have read, he was only a fan of TOS, TNG and Voyager and did not watch what I think by far is the best Star Trek series, DS9, until he got the writing job for Nemesis. Plus I think he only watched the last 10 episode arc of DS9, and a few other highly recommended episodes. So ofcourse he's going to miss the all the facsinating political stuff from DS9 and everything else that series excelled at.

Even so, I enjoyed the movie. For once these ships move and shoot like they are supposed to. I especially loved how the ships seemed to move using 3D space to the fullest. I thought Tom Hardy's acting was great, which is surprising from a young actor like that, going toe to toe with Stewart, while showing the right combination of screen presence and immaturity that the character needed. There was also a lot of character stuff between the two main characters Shiznon and Picard that made me think a lot. Not to mention I have actually seen parts of Shiznon's character in people I know and observed.

There are some political issues I would have wanted to explore. Like the exploration of warriors who never want war to end. I think that needed some time because it speaks to the motivation of the Romulan military backing Shiznon, only a scant few years after the epic and huge Dominion War.

Some of the nits strike as being very nitpicky, like why is Picard so easily disposing the Reman's, when they were described as fierce warriors earlier. Ofcourse nitpickers neglecting to remember Picard, after hearing this information, quickly gave his assessment of that info, which was that they were cannon fodder. So to me, it would be easy to believe a slave race forcibly trained to fight in wars they had nothing to do with, would have a hard time taking down Picard. People just not wanting to even consider the concept of suspension of disbelief.
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#198 of 207 OFFLINE   Dan Rudolph

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Posted June 03 2003 - 03:51 AM

On Worf working the con: Every indication was that Work is back on permanent assignment to the Enterprise, though they never explicitly said this.

I didn't understand why Riker went on the scurity detail when they were borded though. I can see maybe Worf, but this would mainly be a job for a security team, I'd think. Why put the bridge crew in unnecessary danger?
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#199 of 207 OFFLINE   Jack Briggs

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Posted June 03 2003 - 04:34 AM

For once these ships move and shoot like they are supposed to.


What, like airplanes you mean? The way Hollywood so ignorantly portrays "spaceships" nearly all the time?

#200 of 207 OFFLINE   John_Berger

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Posted June 03 2003 - 05:44 AM

Oh, come on, Jack. Do you REALLY think that people would think any more of a movie if inertial physics became integral in sci-fi movies? The only place that people expect to see that is in cartoons when Tom overshoots Jerry and can't stop before slamming into a wall. Well, there and the Wing Commander games. Posted Image


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