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Star Trek - Nemesis


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#181 of 207 OFFLINE   Rex Bachmann

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Posted June 01 2003 - 01:51 PM

Norm wrote (post #180):

[quote] [quote]

Yes, there can be earlier models of anything. (Technically, only the first can be the "prototype"). If you look at the link I provide, I think you'll see that I'm well aware of that. The point I was making, however, is that the Star Trek producers have traditionally, and do still in this film, use the word "prototype" exactly as I defined it. (That's my statement of their definition of the term.) In any event, like it or not that explains why there is no "other" personal transporter to be had in the film, as someone asked.

Somewhat silly, I know, but that's one of the strictures the story is working under, and, so, one has to recognize and acknowledge it.
"Delenda est . . . . "

 


#182 of 207 OFFLINE   Rex Bachmann

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Posted June 01 2003 - 01:56 PM

Andrew Bunk wrote (post #100):

[quote] [quote]
[Ha! Ha!] Sounds loopy to me and I'm not sure how serious you are, but there's at least a nub of truth here. I thought the dialog had more than a bit of a self-referential in-joking to it. Kirk: "It's been fun. . . ." Ugggh!
"Delenda est . . . . "

 


#183 of 207 OFFLINE   Norm

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Posted June 01 2003 - 02:11 PM

[quote] "torch-passing" film in the first place. This tainted the whole endeavor from the get-go, as far as I'm concerned. The "Next Generation" and the TOS-crew should never have met. [quote]in Episode 3. Even when we get to Tattoine for Episode 4 we've already been to that planet and its no longer new & fresh!

#184 of 207 OFFLINE   Norm

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Posted June 01 2003 - 02:15 PM

I would like to add that Sulu ended up being Captain to please the Fanboys. What happened to the other Captain of the Excelsior? They should of at least given Sulu a different ship.

#185 of 207 OFFLINE   Rex Bachmann

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Posted June 01 2003 - 03:26 PM


"Delenda est . . . . "

 


#186 of 207 OFFLINE   David Lambert

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Posted June 01 2003 - 11:01 PM

Rex, a VERY intelligent post, and an excellent point at the end.

As far as your recollection goes about Shatner's inclination to hog airtime: yes. All true, every word you said. I've talked for 15-20 years with people who saw it personally, and told stories...none of which it is my place to share. But you can read Harlan Ellison's book "The City On The Edge Of Forever", in which he presents his side of the story of that episode's making and gives us the original script for that show, which he won awards for. He recounts how he met Shatner and showed him the script and Shatner pretty much immediately started line-counting! Posted Image Page 42 of my copy of the book.
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#187 of 207 OFFLINE   Bryan Tuck

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Posted June 02 2003 - 12:57 AM

[quote] By now, it's been well established that the Federation is in a "soft alliance" with none other than the Klingon Empire. (Anyone remember that little war with the Dominion?) So, if the point of Shinzon's attack on Earth is the "decapitation" and fatal wounding of the Federation---there goes our "terracentricism" again---, and in the name of the Romulan Star Empire to boot, how long do you think the Klingons, mortal enemies of the Romulans,---and no doubt next on the list, if the play succeeds---would stand by and allow this to happen? The politics of such a move against Earth as is attempted here would have to be thoroughly calculated, and the military contigencies prepared for, long before the scenario in this film could be set into motion with any prospect of success. None of this is even hinted at in the film, as far as I know. Hence, a vacuum.

How big a fan is this Mr. Logan, anyhow? [quote]
This is a very good point, Rex, and I must admit, not one I'd thought much about. However, judging from some of the interviews with Logan I've read (although there's nothing specific about this), it's pretty clear that he is a big fan, and I imagine he would have loved to bring something like that into the story. However, I imagine anything like that probably would have been derailed by Berman. (Your point regarding his handling of Enterprise is well-taken.)

The foreword to the novellization of Nemesis also reveals that Logan remembered more about Trek history than Berman and Spiner did. During story conferences, Logan reminded them about the episode with Data's "mother," which they had apparently forgotten about.

That's just one example, of course. However, I do agree with you that playing up the political tensions would have made for a much more interesting movie. (It would have been great to bring Spock and/or Sela into the picture.) I would love to see a mini-series or even some movies dealing with a post-Dominion War federation. That's not likely to happen, of course, but we can always hope.
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#188 of 207 OFFLINE   Nelson Au

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Posted June 02 2003 - 04:36 AM

I've read Ellison's book and Shatner's and Nimoy's, Takei's and Doohan's books recalling the days of TOS. While there seems to be from how I interprete things, Shatner was merely very self absorbed at the time and trying to be sure a good product was made, and he admits that and that he was not out to try to derail his colleagues, it was merely from the way a "TV star" is treated with such kid gloves. The people around him who continue to inflate his ego and status cause he's the star. Unfortunately, it led to hard feelings for the other actors. Regarding contracts, I've read and heard both Shatner and Nimoy say that they both had contracts that said, if he gets this, I get that too and visa versa. And this was in regards to the films, but it could have gone as far back as the TOS later years. Regarding Logan and Nemesis, I've read in other places and here that Nimoy was contacted and was to be a part of the original story, but negotiations fell through. Probably Nimoy was smart to not get involved, he's very protective of Trek and I bet it was not about money, but about how the character Spock was to be used. He must have felt Logan or Berman was not being true to the characters. But that's my guess. (where's Tino? He seemed to have a very advanced copy of the script ages ago that I refused to try to find on the web) The lack of a more complex plotting with the politics and other races in Nemesis I think has already been well addressed here, it's film aimed at the general audience, and it's easier to focus on one race to attack, then involve the Klingon Empire. However, I liked the political plotting that Lucas used in Attack of the Clones. Perhaps Berman saw that and felt that it was too complex for a general audience to get. (And Lucas knows he's doing a third film that explains more and wraps up that story arc) Nemesis is supposed to be a mindless action flick, in either the Studio or Berman's eyes. Nelson

#189 of 207 OFFLINE   DeathStar1

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Posted June 02 2003 - 05:52 AM

Its also one of the few films where I actually felt the characters were "in danger" so to speak - Baird knows how to put an action sequence together.>>>

Agreed on this. But also probably because I went in wanting to know NOTHING about the movie and try to be surprised for a change Posted Image.

#190 of 207 OFFLINE   DeathStar1

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Posted June 02 2003 - 05:57 AM

I think Lucas is falling into the same trap, he's got
Chewy
in Episode 3. Even when we get to Tattoine for Episode 4 we've already been to that planet and it no longer new & fresh!
Yes, but
Like Vulcans, Wookies live for at least 200 years, maby more. And who knows how old Han is, there might be a chance he'd be in as a kid cameo....


#191 of 207 OFFLINE   DeathStar1

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Posted June 02 2003 - 06:04 AM

Personally, I think it would have been great if they'd brought Spock and Sela into the picture.>>> I'm surprised there was no scene with at least a mention of it. If there is another movie, it would be nice if he could have a guest role as Vulcan ambassador to Romulus and Remus.

#192 of 207 OFFLINE   Sean Laughter

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Posted June 02 2003 - 06:17 AM

I've always felt Sela would have made a better "Nemesis" in this film and would have brought some political heft to the plot strictly out of necessity. Whether Denise Crosby could pull the role off well enough is up for debate though as the performance would have to be stronger than what she turned in for the character during the series.

#193 of 207 OFFLINE   Jonny P

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Posted June 02 2003 - 09:45 AM

I, like many, feel that the best of the Trek films with "The Wrath of Khan"... Why? Because we liked the villain. In many respects, it was a subconscious visceral feeling in the minds of Trek fans that they really wanted to see the Enterprise and its crew suffer. Some would say, "But how can you say this?" I can say this because sci-fi fans love movies where their characters take a beating. That is why people love "The Empire Strikes Back" so much. Luke gets his hand chopped off, Han Solo is frozen in a brick, Threepio gets blown apart, and the rebels suffer. In ST:2, Spock gets killed, Kirk needs glasses, the Enterprise takes a beating, Scotty's nephew dies, the crew aboard Regula 1 gets slaughtered, and there are those nasty ear worms. The problem is that in most of the NextGen movies, no one seems like they are truly suffering. They all look like they are at a class reunion going through their paces. The idea of Data getting hurt didn't bother me much because he is, after all, an android. I know he developed into an interesting character, but he is a robot who can download all of his data (no pun intended) to a computer. Okay...Rick Berman's next brainchild... They bring the character of Harry Mudd back. Have it become a situation where Harry has decided to kidnap all of the women from the Star Trek Universe to become his own personal harem. The bald actor that originally played Mudd may be dead, so I would suggest a "casting switcheroo" and have Shatner pull off the toupee, paste on a mustache, and play Mudd. I would have him do a bunch of his spoken-word songs throughout the film. We find out later that it really is Kirk, he went nuts believing his was still the most virile man in the universe, and wanted all of the babes for himself (he got that virus that affected everyone in "Naked Time" and "Naked Now"). He thinks he is Mudd, but it is merely a memory from his early days as a Captain. The Federation, pissed that they don't have any good looking chicks to ease their tension (and appease all the fanboys out there), decide to go after Mudd/Kirk...who is flying about the galaxy in the same green Bird of Prey from Star Trek 4 (Kirk/Mudd even kidnaps the whale named Gracie). They pick up Uhura along the way. Uhura and Shatner, later in the film, pick up where they left off in "Plato's Stepchildren". Kirk spends much of the film trying to find a way to get "assimilated" by 7 of 9. He tries to woo her with a spoken monologue version of "I'm Too Sexy", but Tasha Yar (still covered in oil from that oil slick that ate her) gets annoyed by his advances on the Borg woman and belts him in the jaw. In the movie's climatic finish, an aging Spock has to do a mind meld to find out what happened to his former captain. He finds out Kirk/Mudd tried to perform the act of pon far with Saavik, gets insanely jealous, and performs the Vulcan death grip on his old friend. As he is dying, Kirk/Mudd recalls a line from "Generations" when he says, "It was fun" and that is the end of our old captain. Meanwhile, all of the women from the Star Trek Universe are sent to the Enterprise. Data returns for a cameo and informs them all that he is "functional in every way"...they all say "to heck" with the others, and decide to become Data's personal harem. Great movie...an even better DVD... "Star Trek: Stuck in the Mudd"

#194 of 207 OFFLINE   David Lambert

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Posted June 02 2003 - 01:18 PM

Posted Image
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#195 of 207 OFFLINE   Jonny P

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Posted June 02 2003 - 01:42 PM

Posted Image

Whew...I am glad Lambert was amused...

#196 of 207 OFFLINE   Rex Bachmann

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Posted June 02 2003 - 03:01 PM

Nelson Au wrote (post #188):

[quote] [quote]
Well, it's not that I would expect---or want---them to actually bring the Klingons into the movie, just that some recognition needed to be expressed on the part of the Romulans that their actions might---heck, would surely---bring the Klingon Empire into the conflict eventually, and a statement from them on how they planned to deal with it. I know all too well that two hours are not long enough time to make a truly coherent, yet complex movie plot of the type I would ideally like to have seen, but---damn it!---the political complexities---Who's on whose side and with what motivation? Can they be trusted when one's head is turned? etc.---of DS 9's Dominion War arc and Bablyon 5's Shadow War, respectively, are exactly what made those two television shows at times such absolutely compelling viewing. It wasn't a bunch of models firing light beams at each other, that's for sure (although that was tremendous gravy to top off the build-up).
"Delenda est . . . . "

 


#197 of 207 OFFLINE   Lloyd White

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Posted June 02 2003 - 04:08 PM

[quote] How big a fan is this Mr. Logan, anyhow? Rex Bachmann on June 2nd, 2003 at 04:36 AM [quote]

From interviews that I have read, he was only a fan of TOS, TNG and Voyager and did not watch what I think by far is the best Star Trek series, DS9, until he got the writing job for Nemesis. Plus I think he only watched the last 10 episode arc of DS9, and a few other highly recommended episodes. So ofcourse he's going to miss the all the facsinating political stuff from DS9 and everything else that series excelled at.

Even so, I enjoyed the movie. For once these ships move and shoot like they are supposed to. I especially loved how the ships seemed to move using 3D space to the fullest. I thought Tom Hardy's acting was great, which is surprising from a young actor like that, going toe to toe with Stewart, while showing the right combination of screen presence and immaturity that the character needed. There was also a lot of character stuff between the two main characters Shiznon and Picard that made me think a lot. Not to mention I have actually seen parts of Shiznon's character in people I know and observed.

There are some political issues I would have wanted to explore. Like the exploration of warriors who never want war to end. I think that needed some time because it speaks to the motivation of the Romulan military backing Shiznon, only a scant few years after the epic and huge Dominion War.

Some of the nits strike as being very nitpicky, like why is Picard so easily disposing the Reman's, when they were described as fierce warriors earlier. Ofcourse nitpickers neglecting to remember Picard, after hearing this information, quickly gave his assessment of that info, which was that they were cannon fodder. So to me, it would be easy to believe a slave race forcibly trained to fight in wars they had nothing to do with, would have a hard time taking down Picard. People just not wanting to even consider the concept of suspension of disbelief.
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#198 of 207 OFFLINE   Dan Rudolph

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Posted June 03 2003 - 03:51 AM

On Worf working the con: Every indication was that Work is back on permanent assignment to the Enterprise, though they never explicitly said this. I didn't understand why Riker went on the scurity detail when they were borded though. I can see maybe Worf, but this would mainly be a job for a security team, I'd think. Why put the bridge crew in unnecessary danger?
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#199 of 207 OFFLINE   Jack Briggs

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Posted June 03 2003 - 04:34 AM

What, like airplanes you mean? The way Hollywood so ignorantly portrays "spaceships" nearly all the time?

#200 of 207 OFFLINE   John_Berger

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Posted June 03 2003 - 05:44 AM

Oh, come on, Jack. Do you REALLY think that people would think any more of a movie if inertial physics became integral in sci-fi movies? The only place that people expect to see that is in cartoons when Tom overshoots Jerry and can't stop before slamming into a wall. Well, there and the Wing Commander games. Posted Image




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