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The importance of DVI on a new RP?


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#1 of 13 Ryan_MF

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Posted April 28 2003 - 01:47 PM

I can pick up a Panasonic PT-53WX52 with screen shield for $1530 at a local shop. This looks like a pretty good buy, but it doesn't have a DVI connection. How important is having a DVI connection on a television purchased new right now? There are other units in the same relative price range that have DVI and I'm wondering if I should give them another look.

#2 of 13 Ryan_MF

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Posted April 29 2003 - 01:03 AM

Also - what are your thoughts on the PT-53WX52? I've only found limited reviews on the web.

#3 of 13 sean_pecor

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Posted April 29 2003 - 03:27 AM

I haven't seen the Panasonic PT-53WX52, but I know that the Sony KP46WT500 gets fantastic reviews and uses Panasonic CRTs.

I wouldn't sweat the lack of DVI today in your HDTV. In fact, if you want to be future-proof then I'd get a Firewire equipped TV. Anyway, I've read many white papers that basically say that there is no qualitative difference between analog component input and DVI. Sure, analog can degrade faster over long distances, but the maximum length of a DVI cable is 3 meters, so that basically kills it for anything more than a receiver <-> tv connection (no front projection, no feeding from a media room, etc).

Firewire is snowballing in a BIG way. Business products are fast emerging with Firewire. Consumer products are just starting to emerge. DVI is NOT cost effective in the 21st century home. Plus DVI doesn't do networking.

What can Firewire do now? Imagine plugging a 160gb Maxtor external drive into your video camera for reading/writing of video. I can plug my Sony camera into my Windows XP machine via Firewire, through my ATI All in Wonder card. As soon as I do, I have full control of the camera and can begin editing video.

A Mitsubishi 711 series HDTV and Mitsubishis' Firewire capable components is one example of consumer 1394 that is available today. Plug your DVD into your HDTV, and the HDTV immediately displays a DVD icon and downloads the control codes for the DVD. Plug you camera or hard drive in, same thing happens. Want to record to the hard drive? No problem. Want to stream audio into your home network? No problem.

Anyone who thinks Firewire is dead is dead wrong. Look at the members of the 1394 Trade Association:

http://www.1394ta.org/About/Members/

This is a who's who of the consumer electronics landscape. Hollywierd lawyers have absolutely no chance against such an army of talented engineers Posted Image

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#4 of 13 Rajeev_s

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Posted April 29 2003 - 07:11 AM

I have 53WX42, I love it. I got for a great price at BB. Very good picture, easily tweakable. I just love it. No problems at all. Had it since Nov 02.

#5 of 13 Nathan_H

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Posted May 04 2003 - 04:24 AM

If you want to use any of the new DVDplayers that upconvert to HD specifications, or any of the proposed HD-DVD formats, get a set with DVI-HDCP inputs -- because none of them will use component for anything above 480p.

#6 of 13 Jack Briggs

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Posted May 04 2003 - 04:53 AM

...but I know that the Sony KP46WT500 gets fantastic reviews and uses Panasonic CRTs...


I seriously doubt that. Sony makes its own CRTs and picture tubes. Sony even manufactures the glass for its picture tubes, so it is extremely unlikely the largest manufacturer in the world sources out such essential components to its chief competitor.

#7 of 13 Jed M

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Posted May 04 2003 - 07:01 AM

I just had to make the same decision as you and I decided to wait. I had to pull the trigger by the 1st on a good deal but in the end I wanted to get an up-scalable dvd player eventually so I passed. Besides when I first hooked my computer monitor up with the DVI connection it was stunning at how crisp the picture became over VGA. Sean may be right about the marginal difference between component video but I have read quite a bit of information where the reviewer swears the DVI picture is better than the component, and with my experience with my pc, I decided to wait to find out.
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#8 of 13 Richard Paul

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Posted May 04 2003 - 02:23 PM

In fact, if you want to be future-proof then I'd get a Firewire equipped TV. Anyway, I've read many white papers that basically say that there is no qualitative difference between analog component input and DVI. Sure, analog can degrade faster over long distances, but the maximum length of a DVI cable is 3 meters, so that basically kills it for anything more than a receiver <-> tv connection (no front projection, no feeding from a media room, etc).

Sean, I have to disagree with your negative comments on DVI. In terms of being future-proof DVI is an uncompressed connection which means MPEG-4, Corona, or any other encoding method can be used while with Firewire only MPEG-2 is supported. In regards to game consoles Firewire would not be usuable making me wonder how future-proof Firewire will be. Also, though correct if your referring to CRT displays in the difference between component and DVI, there is a huge difference with digital displays. In digital displays such as DLP, LCD, Plasma, LCOS, and SXRD a DVI connection would produce the best quality video since a digital display has to change analog component to digital which always reduces the image quality. Finally though long DVI cables do tend to introduce errors there are DVI cables of up to 40 feet which though expensive are said to work well (Though even more expensive there are up to 100 meter long fiber optic DVI cables). Also HDMI, which is an improved version of DVI-HDCP which is backward compatible and includes both audio and basic control data(volume, channel, input), was recently shown to work at 25 meters (83 feet) at CES and since HDMI cable can be used to connect to a DVI-HDCP input with a passive connector the 3 meter "limit" is ancient history.

A Mitsubishi 711 series HDTV and Mitsubishis' Firewire capable components is one example of consumer 1394 that is available today. Plug your DVD into your HDTV, and the HDTV immediately displays a DVD icon and downloads the control codes for the DVD.

I have never seen or heard of a DVD player that outputs on Firewire. In fact the only DVD players that upconverts and outputs at 720p/1080i only outputs on DVI-HDCP. If Hollywood will not allow Firewire on DVD players it is unlikely they will output HD-DVD on Firewire.

This is a who's who of the consumer electronics landscape. Hollywierd lawyers have absolutely no chance against such an army of talented engineers Posted Image

Since Hollywood decides on what connection their content is output on it doesn't matter what the IEEE 1394 Trade Association wants. If the Hollywood studios want HDMI/DVI-HDCP for HD-DVD their is little that anyone can do to change their mind.

Ryan, from what I've seen of how things are developing I would recommend gettting a HDTV with DVI-HDCP or HDMI(will come out this year). If you are willing to wait a few months Panasonic is coming out with a HDTV that includes both an HDMI input and QAM compatiblity for HDTV cable (a recent standard for HDTV cable).

#9 of 13 Inspector Hammer!

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Posted May 04 2003 - 07:48 PM

IMO I would not buy an HDTV at this point in time without a DVi input on it, it will play a big roll in dvd's future. I also can't see the possibility of componant based dvd players (non computer drive) that will feature Firewire, but who knows.
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#10 of 13 Richard Paul

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Posted May 05 2003 - 04:07 AM

Before anyone thinks I don't like Firewire, I personally find it to be a useful computer standard. It's also currently the only standard for recording HDTV which I think is necessary for ATSC to replace the old NTSC system in the United States and hopefully a good portion of the world. I just don't think that Hollywood will allow Firewire to be used for HD-DVD since they won't even allow it for DVD.

#11 of 13 sean_pecor

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Posted May 05 2003 - 06:35 AM

Quote:
I seriously doubt that. Sony makes its own CRTs and picture tubes. Sony even manufactures the glass for its picture tubes, so it is extremely unlikely the largest manufacturer in the world sources out such essential components to its chief competitor.

The only evidence I have regarding my earlier statement that kp46wt500 uses Panasonic CRTs, is the technician who diagnosed the problem, ordered the replacements, and installed them, claims they are manufactured by Panasonic. If he is incorrect, then its my bad for spreading false information! I'll look into this more, out of personal curiousity. Such cross-pollination is common between competitors in other industries, like cars etc...

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#12 of 13 ManW_TheUncool

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Posted May 05 2003 - 09:44 PM

~$1500 is no longer that great a deal for the current Panny 53". It's a good deal for the wx52 model, but not exactly great. I suggest waiting for the upcoming Panny's w/ DVI/HDCP instead--should be coming this summer--if you like the Panny's in general. Might end up costing about the same since the upcoming 53" model should have a lower original MSRP.

There are RPTVs that do better in certain areas and/or w/ better/more features, but the Panny's are excellent bang-for-the-buck and don't really take a backseat for 16x9 DVD and HD viewing compared to most other RPTVs that cost more--some ISF guys, including HTF's highly reputable Gregg and Michael, even go so far as to compare ISF calibrated Panny's to non-ISFed Pioneer Elites that cost more than 2x as much. And the Panny's are quite tweakable, if you're reasonably handy.

Many HTFers (and members at other forum sites) own a Panny because of all of this. And YES, I own a 53wx42 too and LOVE it despite a few flaws...

_Man_

PS: If you go back and look for John CW's recent poll/survey thread on TVs owned by HTFers, you'll find plenty of happy Panny owners offering their $.02 there.

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#13 of 13 ManW_TheUncool

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Posted May 06 2003 - 08:12 AM

Well, for $1K, I wouldn't worry about DVI/HDCP unless you feel the extra HD-capable input is important--it might be if you need exactly 3 such inputs, eg. HD receiver, DVD player plus X-box, and would otherwise need a high quality switcher.

To me, if/whenever DVI/HDCP becomes a big obstacle, I'll just buy a new and better TV, if I didn't spend that much on the older one. In fact, that's more or less how I looked at my own choice of the Panny 53wx42 back in 12/02 although I don't expect DVI/HDCP to be my big obstacle for a few years--hopefully, not until HD-DVD becomes an affordable reality. I figured by the time it matters much to me, I'll be ready for a TV upgrade anyway--maybe LCoS-based RPTV will be the way to go by then.

But then again, YMMV.

_Man_

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