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DVI and Firewire can we convert to Component, making us not need a new tv?


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#1 of 17 OFFLINE   Paul Seyfarth

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Posted April 26 2003 - 05:26 AM

I started looking for a HDTV about a month ago. I keep on hearing about DVI, and firewire connections, since I don't know whats going to win I would like to get a tv that has both.

But they are all going to be new, and I won't be able to find a great price on them. Does anyone know if there would be things that convert the DVI or Firewire outputs to Component video? If so how would it work, and would there be a loss of quality?

Anyone have any info on this, or tried something like that out?

#2 of 17 OFFLINE   Richard Paul

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Posted April 26 2003 - 07:48 AM

To answer your question which will win I would say both. The one you would really need on your TV though is DVI-HDCP since that is the most secure of the two connections and the one which is most future-proof. The reason DVI-HDCP is most secure is because the video is uncompressed and encrypted while Firewire is MPEG-2 and encrypted. DVI-HDCP will certainly be the connection Hollywood will push the most for any future pre-recorded formats. Firewire has it's own advantages one of which is that its the only connection which can record HDTV. Since that is only important for devices that record HDTV it would not be needed on the TV. Of course having both on a TV would be great if you live in an area with several local HDTV channels since you would then need only an antenna to watch them.

Several manufacturers are releasing new HDTV RPTV's that will be coming out in a few months which have both connections at more reasonable prices than last years models. An example is Sony whose only models that had both DVI-HDCP and Firewire connections cost $5,000 for a 57" while this year Sony will release a 57" with both connections for $3,000.

The reason manufacturers are going to use DVI-HDCP is to create a secure connection that can't be recorded. They will do their best to prevent the creation or sell of devices that can convert it to another connection. Such devices may still become available but would be illegal and expensive. To a lesser extent this would also apply to Firewire content which is encrypted.

#3 of 17 OFFLINE   Allan Jayne

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Posted April 27 2003 - 02:29 AM

Maybe you might want to hold off buying an HDTV until this DVI vs. component issue gets settled down and also prices come down.

Then, too, if we cannot record HDTV, we will be going back to the bad old days when the only way to watch is to be in front of the TV when the show comes on. Thos of us who want to watch what we want when we want will still have to use standard definition TV video and for that you don]t need an expensive HDTV set.

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#4 of 17 OFFLINE   Mike_Sidden

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Posted April 27 2003 - 05:44 AM

I'm not sure if this will help and I really don't know if this is the right type of cable, but it maybe worth looking into if you have a DVI source and only component inputs.

http://www.projector....D/product.html

Let us know if this works for you.

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#5 of 17 OFFLINE   Paul Seyfarth

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Posted April 27 2003 - 06:00 AM

Please someone tell me if that works, that way I can get a cheap direct view with only component video. There is an Open Box 32" samsung at best buy right now, or a 36XBR400 local online.

Edit: wouldn't we have to try it on an encoded broadcast to know if it works?

#6 of 17 OFFLINE   Joshua_Y

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Posted April 27 2003 - 07:51 AM

All I care about is HD-DVD...I will still be able to hook that up to my HDTV with component right?

#7 of 17 OFFLINE   Dave Mark

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Posted April 29 2003 - 01:11 AM

Yes, someone please tell me if this would allow me to view DVDs from a DVI source (such as the new Samsung DVD upconverting players) to my KP51HW40 set (no DVI input)at HD resolution.

#8 of 17 OFFLINE   John-Miles

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Posted April 29 2003 - 06:13 AM

Its really hard to say what will happen. I should note though that the DMCA which makes a converter box from dvi-component illegal is only valid in the US, the rest of the world can do what it likes, they just cant sell it in the US.

as well teh DMCA has been taking heavy fire for a number of years so far its still there but for how long?

Long story short I am not worried about DVI and i really dont think it will come to pass, far too many people have HDTV's with only component.

funny also i read anothe thread where someone mentioned how funny it is that Audio is going analog to prevent copying and video is going digital for the same reason....

Edit: that cable wont work cause it cannot do anything about the copy protection on the signal. you would ahve to take care of that then do the conversion.
Cheers

John

#9 of 17 OFFLINE   Lew Crippen

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Posted April 29 2003 - 07:42 AM

Quote:
There is an Open Box 32" samsung at best buy right now
I’d be cautions about open box TVs. If they are open box because they have been returned, you may be getting a set that has been run for some period with all the setting maxed out (torch mode).
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#10 of 17 OFFLINE   Tyler DJW

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Posted April 29 2003 - 09:22 AM

Quote:
funny also i read anothe thread where someone mentioned how funny it is that Audio is going analog to prevent copying and video is going digital for the same reason....

Yeah, I was the one who made that comment, but I still haven't heard a good explanation. As long as you're passing your video in the digital domain, someone WILL find a way to defeat it. The odds of successfully capturing, digitizing, and compressing HDTV from analog seem slim to me, so why not just go with that.

I just bought an HDTV with firewire so I am very curious to see how this will all turn out. To me, DVI makes the least sense because I don't beleive I've ever seen a set with more than 1 connection (how can you connect multiple devices... i also never see this discussed) and you cannot EVER legally copy it (time shifting?). At least firewire allows for options in how it is copy protected. Wake up hollywood, the people who want to cheat the system will find a way, but in the mean time you're making your paying public very frustrated.Posted Image

/rant

PS - Isn't HDMI supposed to be replacing DVI anyways???
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#11 of 17 OFFLINE   John-Miles

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Posted April 29 2003 - 09:47 AM

Unfortunately Tyler I think we who understand what you have just said are in the vast minority.

Your explainationw as one of the best I have ever heard. and like my friend Jagan always says if it is playable it is piratable.

the thing that has always confused me is the fact that computers can easily have a DVI input, with the input im sure a decoder for the copy protection could be easily made and that would make copying of HDTV even easier wouldn't it?

seems like DVI and firewire are just handing it to the computer people of the world Posted Image
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#12 of 17 OFFLINE   Richard Paul

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Posted April 29 2003 - 02:00 PM

I should note though that the DMCA which makes a converter box from dvi-component illegal is only valid in the US, the rest of the world can do what it likes, they just cant sell it in the US.

Just because the DMCA was not passed in any other countries doesn't mean that there are no equivalent laws. The reason the DMCA was passed was to bring our laws on copyright infringement up to date with Europe's (DMCA does actually go beyond Europe's). To put it bluntly it is illegal to make or sell a converter box for DVI-HDCP in most of the world.

The odds of successfully capturing, digitizing, and compressing HDTV from analog seem slim to me, so why not just go with that.

The main reason is that its not that hard to digitize analog HDTV since every Plasma, LCD, and DLP does it. Also since there is no Macrovision or equivalent technology on HDTV component video there would be no way for a recorder to know whether it should be recorded. If they were to make some form of Macrovision for HDTV component video it would obsolete older HDTV's just as well as DVI-HDCP.

the thing that has always confused me is the fact that computers can easily have a DVI input, with the input im sure a decoder for the copy protection could be easily made and that would make copying of HDTV even easier wouldn't it?

Such a card if made would be expensive and illegal. Expensive since its illegal and illegal since it would have to purposely be made to decode DVI-HDCP. Also the video on DVI-HDCP is uncompressed which would make even 720p impossible to record on current hard drives. Since 720p is [720*1280*24(24bit RGB)*30(fps) = 663552000 bits per second] or 663Mbps. Current hard drives maximum data rate is 133Mbps with sustainable write speeds being no more than 80Mbps and uncompressed 1080p(or 1080i) would be 1,500Mbps (or 1.5Gbps).

To me, DVI makes the least sense because I don't beleive I've ever seen a set with more than 1 connection (how can you connect multiple devices... i also never see this discussed) and you cannot EVER legally copy it (time shifting?).

DVI-HDCP is never meant to be recordable and any manufacturer who builds a DVI-HDCP input is legally bound not to allow it to be recorded. Also a reason that you have never heard many complain about HDTV's only having one DVI-HDCP input is that many people on this forum own surround sound receivers which switch component video and therefore expect newer surround sound receivers to switch DVI-HDCP. DVI-HDCP switching should become widely available in a year or two probably as HDMI surround sound receivers(which will be compatible with DVI-HDCP). Eventually dedicated HDMI switchers will also appear though much of the benefit of HDMI over DVI-HDCP is the fact it can carry Dolby Digital, DTS, and even 8 channels of 24bit PCM audio.

PS - Isn't HDMI supposed to be replacing DVI anyways???

Yes, but HDMI is backward compatible with DVI-HDCP except for HDMI's audio and control data(controls volume, channel, etc...). HDMI in terms of the video is identical to DVI-HDCP. In other words if you have a HDTV with DVI-HDCP and pre-recorded Blu-Ray (or HD-DVD) only outputs on HDMI you would be fine.

seems like DVI and firewire are just handing it to the computer people of the world Posted Image

DVI-HDCP is never meant to be recorded but Firewire is specifically made for recording which is why Hollywood is only supporting DVI-HDCP. Has anyone ever seen a DVD player that outputs protected content by Firewire? I haven't but I've seen several that output on DVI-HDCP.

#13 of 17 OFFLINE   Paul Seyfarth

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Posted April 29 2003 - 02:09 PM

So I should get a TV with DVI input? What would I not be able to watch without DVI input? As in what types of things would I not be able to get in full high def, some stations, movie channels, pay per view, what?

#14 of 17 OFFLINE   John-Miles

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Posted April 29 2003 - 02:15 PM

Quote:
bits per second] or 663Mbps. Current hard drives maximum data rate is 133Mbps with sustainable write speeds being no more than 80Mbps


give it a year or two if there is a market im sure they will find a way around this. and i beleive 1080i would require less bits than this.

Such a card if made would be expensive and illegal. Expensive since its illegal and illegal since it would have to purposely be made to decode DVI-HDCP.

why would this be illegal, there would definitely be an interesting court case over this one cause one very simple logical way of looking at it is that such a card would only be the next generation of tv cards. since when are tv cards illegal?

there ahve been numerous discussion about this many times on this board so i will point out one of the arguments made time and time again, what about fair use rights?



Quote:
Just because the DMCA was not passed in any other countries doesn't mean that there are no equivalent laws. The reason the DMCA was passed was to bring our laws on copyright infringement up to date with Europe's (DMCA does actually go beyond Europe's). To put it bluntly it is illegal to make or sell a converter box for DVI-HDCP in most of the world.


I will admit my ignorance but can you provide some references to these laws? I am unaware of any such laws in canada or asia.
Cheers

John

#15 of 17 OFFLINE   Tyler DJW

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Posted April 30 2003 - 02:45 AM

Richard, you make many excellent points. What really strikes me is that everyone seems to be clamouring to get a TV with DVI when there is no way CURRENTLY to switch between DVI devices. You shouldn't need to buy a receiver and HDMI-DVI connectors to watch different sources, though I have to acknowledge that that was how switching component video has worked for me.

Quote:
The main reason is that its not that hard to digitize analog HDTV since every Plasma, LCD, and DLP does it.

This hadn't occured to me. I also know that you could record the analog signal as is. But the overriding concern seems to be transferring exact digital duplicates of orignal HD material (at least that's the analogy to what's happening in Hi-Rez audio) which isn't what you get if you recapture the analog source.

.... This could just go on forever. And I don't think anyone here is trying to prove someone else wrong, there's just a lot to be said on the subject. But I will reiterate my previous comment that analog or digital, if someone what's to pirate the material badly enough, they'll find the way. But people like me who are willing to just drop the money on programming legitimately should be asked to buy new equipment (DVI switcher, new receivers, new TVs) when their current equipment is already capable. I don't want to steal anything, I just want to enjoy TV. Where does this studio paranoia come from, and why do the manufacturers bow to the pressure?
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#16 of 17 OFFLINE   Richard Paul

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Posted April 30 2003 - 02:11 PM

Paul, the truth is at the moment there's only one thing I know of that requires a DVI-HDCP and that is DVD players that upconvert video to 720p/1080i for HDTV's. Hollywood is REALLY paranoid over any HDTV content being recorded but the biggest reason they are pushing DVI-HDCP is for pre-recorded HDTV. I know D-VHS uses component video but D-Theater is truly a temporary solution since the studios will want pre-recorded Blu-Ray/HD-DVD to output only on HDMI. A good example of this is the fact that there are no DVD players which upconvert video to 720p/1080i and deliver over component along with the fact there are no DVD players that send video over Firewire. The fact that the studios won't even allow upconverted DVD video over component is one of the best signs (or worst for those with HDTV's that lack DVI-HDCP) of Hollywoods paranoia.

John, the data rate for 1080p is the same as 1080i which is [1080*1920*24(24bit RGB)*30(fps) = 1,492,992,000 bits per second] or 1,500Mbps. TV cards are not illegal mainly because they have legitimate use though all legal TV cards can't record Macrovison protected content. Both HDMI and DVI-HDCP are never meant to be recorded though and therefore a card that can decode them would have no legitimate use. Hollywood currently says HDMI/DVI-HDCP would only be required for pre-recorded content which would be no different than Macrovision in purpose. It's if they try to use HDMI/DVI-HDCP for pay per view movies or even channels which would set off a fight over fair use rights and definitely not help the sell of HDTV's. Most of the world has laws concerning copyright laws and the breaking of encryption, also Hollywood has a way of getting laws passed (Disney extended US copyrights 20 years and its only one company!). I must admit of knowing no Canadian laws though but if it is illegal to break Macrovision then breaking HDMI/DVI-HDCP encryption is probably illegal (many laws are passed with an eye for the future).

Tyler, it is a bit odd that no own has released a DVI-HDCP switcher but one still can't go to your average home electronics store and get a component video switcher either (way things are going may never be necessary). The main reason is simply the lack of demand since of the 4% of the US population with HDTV's only about 1% are using them for HDTV (3% use it for DVD viewing). I'm not sure I'm right but I believe that is how things will turn out, but in several ways it would be better if I'm wrong about the future of HDMI/DVI-HDCP. The studios know that stopping pirates is impossible but they believe that HDMI will make it harder for the pirates. Hollywood studios paranoia is not unjustified so much as greatly exaggerated. There are people that will many times do what is wrong and cheap than right and expensive when they see the victims as multi-millionares. Hollywood simply believes that everyone is like that and therefore believe that only technology and strict laws can prevent their studios from going broke. Manufactures add DVI-HDCP because Hollywood has made it clear it wishes to have future products use it. Besides Mitsubishi which belongs to the 1394 Trade Association, which is trying their best to make Firewire the digital connection of the future, all the major television companies are adding HDMI/DVI-HDCP (Panasonic is coming out with an HDTV with HDMI this year). To manafacturers there is little reason to go against HDMI/DVI-HDCP especially if it's advertised as a "feature" even for displays that get no advantage in picture quality from it (all CRT based HDTV's).

#17 of 17 OFFLINE   John-Miles

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Posted April 30 2003 - 02:58 PM

Richard you bring up some very good points. personally i am just worried that the HDTV i own will not be able to display full HDTV in the future because some copy protection connection is needed. and I am also of the mind that manufacturers or someone will be in a whole ehap of trouble if it somes out that their HDTV ready sets are not infact HDTV ready in a year or so if DVI-HDCP comes in.

on a related note a court in the US recently ruled that programs like morpheous are not illegal, but using them for the majority of their purposes is.... weired how laws work but anyway my point is in a few eyars we might ahve rulings sayign that a converter box that will decode and output component is legal when used simply to view programming.
Cheers

John


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