-

Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

dv45a+ICBM or wait for 2900


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
15 replies to this topic

#1 of 16 Jeff O.

Jeff O.

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 190 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 12 1999

Posted April 26 2003 - 03:55 AM

Ok, here is my sort of dilemma. I have been waiting to purchase a universal player (DVD-A/SACD) until the Denon 2900 comes out. However, a local BM has the DV45a on sale this weekend. I want the player mainly for music, so the picture quality isn't as important to me. As I see it, the main advantage of the 2900 over the 45a is that the bass management uses a 80 hz crossover, which is more suited to my setup than the 100 hz the dv45a uses. However, the dv45a would be nearly $600 cheaper than the 2900 and I could add the ICBM for another $250, have a more versatile setup and still save $350. I realize the 2900 hasn't come out yet, so I am just going on the specs from the manual and there are no guarantees of the performance of the player. So, any other reasons why I should wait, or should I pull the trigger now?
Jeff

#2 of 16 DanielSmi

DanielSmi

    Second Unit

  • 455 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 20 2002

Posted April 26 2003 - 07:04 AM

The 2900 does use better DAC's than the 45a I think it's one of this first that uses DSD capable DAC's. I'm not sure as to whether or not the SACD signal is converted to PCM for BM and TA or whether it can do it using the DSD signal and then converting it to analog. I myself would choose the 2900 over the 45a but you have a tough decision to make. If the 2900 had i.Link i'd be all over it like white on rice!

Daniel Smith

#3 of 16 Brian L

Brian L

    Screenwriter

  • 2,882 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 08 1998

Posted April 26 2003 - 07:06 AM

I have a 45A w/ICBM. If I were in your shoes right now, I might wait just to see what the test results are.

Even if video is not a big issue now, it may be in the future. That said, I am very happy with the audio performance of the player in ALL formats. Not to say that there may be others that may not be, but to me, its the software that matters, not so much the player.

In the 45A, good software will sound good (Hotel California, Big Phatt Band, Beck's Sea Change). Crap software will sound like crap (Linkin Park Reanimator is the only title I have that doesn't hold up when compared to several other titles I own).

Any rig with an ICBM is going to have very high quality and flexible BM. I doubt any universal player will be able to touch it. You may find that you need it even with the 2900.

Until someone actually gets a 2900 and it is properly tested, the BM question will be unanswered. Even if it is spec'd to have proper BM, be aware that specs as well as reviewers for major magazines sometimes get it wrong (case in point, S&V's review of the 45A).

Don't forget that the 45A does not do time alignment for SACD (it is said to do it in DVD-A, but I can not confirm that). Of course, if it did, that may involve a conversion to PCM, and there are those that consider that a step backwards in sound quality.

As for PQ of the 45A, if the 2900 is based on the DCDi chip, its de-interlacing will be better. How much of a difference you actually see only you can tell. My family watched Spirited Away last night. If the PQ can be improved, I am at a loss to say how.

The 45A is said to have the chroma bug, but it is very, very hard to see. In fact, even after Don Munsil (one of the authors of the Secrets shoot out) suggested to me a better scene to use as a test (Toy Story chapter 4, Woody holding a microphone), its still hard to see. In fact, I am not convinced that I see it at all.

For comparison, I did run the same chapter through an older Sony player (650D) in interlaced mode, and I could definitely see it there. I have read that some players may actually hide or diminish the effect when in Progressive mode.

So, I guess its up to you, right? But make sure you have a few bucks set aside for an ICBM...you may need it.

Brian

#4 of 16 Daniel Mai

Daniel Mai

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 228 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 02 2001

Posted April 26 2003 - 10:12 AM

The 2900 uses the Silicon Image and Mits. chip, not DCDi. Time alignment is only on DVD-A, not on SACD.

#5 of 16 Jeff O.

Jeff O.

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 190 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 12 1999

Posted April 27 2003 - 02:31 AM

Thanks for the help guys. I went out to check out the 45a and the store only had a re-pack (someone brought back). So I picked it up and have a week to audition it before they get a new one in.

Actually, I find that I like the player. I auditioned it most with music, but I did put in Toy Story 2 and thought the picture looked fantastic (progressive on a Tosh 50"). As for music, I had the Pink Floyd disk and picked up Toto IV. I was a little surprise (given the problems with bass management reported on this forum) to find plenty of sub output on the SACD stereo track of Toto. So, it must be doing some type of bass management. Finally getting to hear the surround mix of DSOTM was great. I haven't listened to many of my DVD-A disks yet.

I realize that the 45a does not do time alignment for SACD, but it does for DVD-A, something my old player didn't do. What I didn't mention in the above post was that one of the reasons I was waiting for the 2900 was for time alignment of SACD. I am sure that would have convinced me to wait.

Jeff

#6 of 16 Brian L

Brian L

    Screenwriter

  • 2,882 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 08 1998

Posted April 27 2003 - 03:36 AM

Quote:
I was a little surprise (given the problems with bass management reported on this forum) to find plenty of sub output on the SACD stereo track of Toto.


It does do BM on SACD, plus, if a DVD-A disc has bass on the .1 track, you will get that too, so long as you do have a sub.

I had the player for a while before I got the ICBM, and I never thought there was much missing sound wise. That said, with an ICBM, the over quality of bass improved a great deal...less boommy, tighter.

And a disc like Monsters will look good on just about any player. Thats my normal "show of the system" title.

BGL

#7 of 16 Daniel Mai

Daniel Mai

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 228 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 02 2001

Posted April 27 2003 - 04:26 AM

I checked the manual again and it specifically state on page 18(center left handside) that "The delay time setting is not valid when playing Super audio CDs"

#8 of 16 Brian L

Brian L

    Screenwriter

  • 2,882 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 08 1998

Posted April 27 2003 - 11:09 AM

Quote:
I checked the manual again and it specifically state on page 18(center left handside) that "The delay time setting is not valid when playing Super audio CDs"


Daniel, are you talking about the 45A or the 2900?

I think we have stated several times already that the 45A does NOT do time alignment on SACD.

BGL

#9 of 16 Daniel Mai

Daniel Mai

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 228 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 02 2001

Posted April 27 2003 - 11:52 AM

2900

#10 of 16 Jeff O.

Jeff O.

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 190 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 12 1999

Posted April 28 2003 - 01:59 AM

Daniel,
Thanks. Thats what I meant to say. Before I got the 45a, I checked the 2900 manual online and it specifically said that it did NOT do time alignment on SACD. Therefore negating one other potential positive for the 2900 over the 45a (as the 45a does not do time alignment either).

I re-read the review on the 45a in S&V. They say they have never seen time alignment in SACD. Perhaps we will have to wait for the adoption of a standard digital output for SACD to allow the processor to do the bass management and TA. (I realize that Pioneer and Denon have that capability in their top of the line stuff, but I will wait for a standard, more inexpensive solution).
Jeff

#11 of 16 Brian L

Brian L

    Screenwriter

  • 2,882 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 08 1998

Posted April 28 2003 - 05:18 AM

Quote:
Perhaps we will have to wait for the adoption of a standard digital output for SACD to allow the processor to do the bass management and TA.


The reason the vendors get BM and TA wrong has nothing to do with where the process takes place. Just because it moves from a player to a pre/pro should not automatically mean that they now get it right.

Then there's the argument about how it gets done? Do they convert SACD to PCM to do it? If so, does that hurt the sound? DO they down rez DVD-A to a lower resolution to do it? Does that hurt anything?

I know that S&V had a two page article claiming that the new Pioneer Receiver/DVD player pair (that use Firewire) gets it right across the board. These are the same guys that said the 45A got BM right across the board, which was incorrect.

BGL

#12 of 16 DanielSmi

DanielSmi

    Second Unit

  • 455 posts
  • Join Date: Mar 20 2002

Posted April 28 2003 - 03:19 PM

Well the BM and TA in the i.Link interface is done in the receiver not the player and 49TXi definitely does full BM and TA. It does have to convert SACD to 88.2/32 PCM to do BM and TA but since the 47ai sends a DSD not PCM signal for SACD over the i.Link interface you can connect it a different pre/pro or receiver that does BM and TA without converting DSD to PCM.

Sony's new Digital receiver will do BM and TA in DSD if I'm correct. It won't be avail until August.

Daniel Smith

#13 of 16 Philip Hamm

Philip Hamm

    Lead Actor

  • 6,885 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 23 1999

Posted April 28 2003 - 11:56 PM

Quote:
The reason the vendors get BM and TA wrong has nothing to do with where the process takes place. Just because it moves from a player to a pre/pro should not automatically mean that they now get it right.
You can say that again.
Philip Hamm
Moderator Emeritus

#14 of 16 Jeff O.

Jeff O.

    Stunt Coordinator

  • 190 posts
  • Join Date: Jun 12 1999

Posted April 29 2003 - 01:50 AM

Brian and Philip,
I agree. I didn't mean to say that it had to be done in the receiver to get it done right. I just meant that when there is a standard, as in DD and DTS bass management and time alignment that seems to be done correctly usually in the receiver, then things will get better. If everyone agreed on a digital interface for these new formats (DVD-A and SACD), then manufacturers could begin producing the appropriate chips cheaper and a standard implementation would be possible and affordable.

#15 of 16 Steve_AS

Steve_AS

    Second Unit

  • 412 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 04 2002

Posted May 03 2003 - 06:44 PM

Quote:
It does do BM on SACD, plus, if a DVD-A disc has bass on the .1 track, you will get that too, so long as you do have a sub.


The DV-45a will do BM on DVD-A stereo ("2.0") tracks as well.

#16 of 16 Kevin C Brown

Kevin C Brown

    Producer

  • 5,713 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 03 2000

Posted May 03 2003 - 07:03 PM

I have a 47ai, and am currently pondering the 2900, in that no chroma bug and *complete* BM would be nice. But I'm also waiting for the Marantz 8400, in that the 8300 got fantastic reviews for audio, to see if it has the chroma bug and BM fixed.
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ...


Back to Blu-ray, DVD, LD, Tivo, Satellite and Other Playback Devices



Forum Nav Content I Follow