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Die Another Day: subtitle issues


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#1 of 27 OFFLINE   Matt Naglieri

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Posted April 21 2003 - 06:33 AM

I got a copy of the region 2 disc today and to my extreme disappointment the original films subtitles have been removed from the film and replaced with those horrible looking things that have ruined such films as Star Wars Episodes 1 & 2, XXX, I Spy, etc...

I would assume the same will be done for the Region 1 version which is to be released on June 3rd but this may or may not happen.

I don't see how any major studio could seriously release a dvd that looks as if it were a crappy illegal bootleg.

Is there any hope that they will stop doing this in the near future? I'm damn sick of wasting my money on this unwatchable crap.

#2 of 27 OFFLINE   Rob Lutter

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Posted April 21 2003 - 06:37 AM

It's standard pratice for MGM so they can have hard-subs translated in multiple languages. This happens on EVERY MGM disc.

#3 of 27 OFFLINE   Matt Naglieri

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Posted April 21 2003 - 06:41 AM

I can't understand why this is a standard practice. I would think that the majority of people seeing this film are english speaking and yet we are placed in the minority and get this crap.

I would not be opposed to this practice if these subtitles didn't take up about 15-25% of my screen and looked professional.

#4 of 27 OFFLINE   stephen^wilson

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Posted April 21 2003 - 07:09 AM

I was worried that MGM would do this with the subtitles.The region 2 version of The Terminator was the same,the info about the war being fought here,tonight was removed and replaced with those crappy subtitles.The taking of pelham 123 has one subtitle in the movie and they removed that and replaced it on the black bar at the bottom of the screen.with it not being anamorphic i lost the bottom line of the subtitle when i zoomed it to fill my tv.One thing though,can you tell me where you got your region 2 version from?

#5 of 27 OFFLINE   Matt Naglieri

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Posted April 21 2003 - 07:44 AM

In regards to terminator my region 1 version looks fine and the subtitles are intact.

Die Another Day was released on April 16th in sweden. I purchased from dvdsverige Upon registration an english translation option is available on the website.


The disc itself came in a slim 2 disc case with a cardboard slipcover. The insert itself is double sided with alternate artwork on the back.

For anyone who doesn't know the region 2 disc has an exclusive documentary which will not be on region 1 disc

#6 of 27 OFFLINE   stephen^wilson

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Posted April 21 2003 - 07:49 AM

Was the cover in english or swedish?

#7 of 27 OFFLINE   Matt Naglieri

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Posted April 21 2003 - 07:54 AM

The front and side cover are in english as is the complete booklet inside. The back cover is in swedish. Basically all the back cover says is a description of the film and features. Overall it looks better to me then the upcoming R1 artwork.

#8 of 27 OFFLINE   Jeff Kleist

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Posted April 21 2003 - 09:02 AM

Quote:
I can't understand why this is a standard practice

Because it saves a ton of money not having to recompress the film 15 times.

#9 of 27 OFFLINE   Matt Naglieri

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Posted April 21 2003 - 09:29 AM

How much money could it possibly cost? Am I supposed to believe there's no money for the proper display of subtitles but there is enough money to make a pan & scan transfer? Not to mention i'm certain that the vhs version would be unaffected by this as vcr's are not capable of anything other than playing back the recorded material.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I would think it's no different to show a proper subtitle than it would be to show a proper credit in an opening sequence of any film.

I remember reading somewhere that the real reason they remove the subtitles from the film because it overlaps with the secondary subtitles on the dvd and they want to prevent viewers with hearing disabilities from seeing two of the same subtitle.

Again I have to say if they didn't look as bad as they do I would not be opposed to it. I've seen some films that have looked decent and that are a nuisance and are unwatchable.

I guess I just don't get the reason behind it all. In example from FOX - Hot Shots has the crappy subtitles but Hot Shots: Part Deux doesn't. WHY?? Was this ever discussed anywhere. I've tried looking here on forum but found nothing.

Regardless if the studio is altering the film from it's theatrical presentation in this case removal of subtitles then we should be given a warning about it and the option not to buy it. To me it's no different than the pan & scan problem which shouldn't even exist. But of course if they told the truth and it affected sales then maybe they would see the point.

#10 of 27 OFFLINE   Ric Easton

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Posted April 21 2003 - 10:02 AM

Tbis is a bummer! I use black mat boards to cover up the black bars on 1:2.35 releases (makes it a little more immersive, with the lights off). Would they appear on my widescreen if I didn't use them... or would they still be cut off? This is unacceptable!

Ric

#11 of 27 OFFLINE   Matt Naglieri

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Posted April 21 2003 - 10:06 AM

Ric

The first subtitle in the film which describes the military camp in North Korea is shown partially in the film and on the bottom black bar. The other subtitles are shown only in the bottom black bar.

If you have seen XXX it's very similar.

#12 of 27 OFFLINE   James Reader

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Posted April 21 2003 - 10:11 AM

Quote:
I can't understand why this is a standard practice. I would think that the majority of people seeing this film are english speaking and yet we are placed in the minority and get this crap.


Well, your complaining about the R2 Swedish version, where I would guess "the majority of people seeing the film" don't have English for their first language.

Quote:
Please correct me if I am wrong but I would think it's no different to show a proper subtitle than it would be to show a proper credit in an opening sequence of any film.

So in this case, that policy might have resulted in a burnt in Swedish subtitle (or perhaps German, I understand Sweden has a large German population).

Wait and see what happens in R1. MGM didn't use subtitles for the opening of The Terminator even though they did on the R2 release.

Quote:
I'm damn sick of wasting my money on this unwatchable crap.

Then don't buy European DVDs then?
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#13 of 27 OFFLINE   Matt Naglieri

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Posted April 21 2003 - 10:20 AM

The point of this thread is to make people aware of a potential problem that is not usually discussed in many online reviews. I'm sure many people may find this information useful when they are about to purchase a dvd.

Quote:
Well, your complaining about the R2 Swedish version, where I would guess "the majority of people seeing the film" don't have English for their first language.


Most of the packaging including the booklet inside are in english only.

It is a serious problem not just in the US and many people are bothered by it.

Quote:
So in this case, that policy might have resulted in a burnt in Swedish subtitle (or perhaps German, I understand Sweden has a large German population).


I think your missing the point. The subtitles i'm refering to are what were presented in theaters here in the US and they are not present on this this release. The user has a choice of which language these subtitles are presented in but you are forced to view them in either english (where appropriate) or throughout the entire film in another language.

Quote:
Then don't buy European DVDs then?


It's not only on European DVD's Star Wars 1 & 2, XXX , I Spy and a bunch of others all from region 1 have this problem

Quote:
Wait and see what happens in R1. MGM didn't use subtitles for the opening of The Terminator even though they did on the R2 release


Of course if June 3rd comes along and we here in region 1 get what I would believe to be the correct version I would hope to be the first person to tell everyone to run out and buy it. I am just informing those who may not want to spend the money on it should the same situation occur.

#14 of 27 OFFLINE   Vincent Matis

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Posted April 21 2003 - 10:34 AM

Quote:
Because it saves a ton of money not having to recompress the film 15 times.

Don't need to: Leave the burn-in subtitle as is and "subtitle" the subtitle... This practise is often used for translating newspaper headlines, billboards,... in other language...

Vincent

#15 of 27 OFFLINE   Matt Naglieri

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Posted April 21 2003 - 10:37 AM

Vincent


I guess that would be too simple a solution. Although it would be truly ideal.

#16 of 27 OFFLINE   James Reader

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Posted April 21 2003 - 10:38 AM

Quote:
I think your missing the point. The subtitles i'm refering to are what was presented in theaters in the US they are not present on this this release.


What's how the subtitles were presented in American cinemas got to do with a Swedish disc? Countries which don't have English as their first language often get copies of film prints with different lauguage burnt in subtitles. Would you rather have had Swedish burnt in subtitles on your Swedish DVD?

I know other discs have the same problem, and R1 discs have the same issue too (but remember there's FRENCH Canadians who would appriciate FRENCH subtitles and I belive SPANISH is almost as popular as English in some parts of America...)

As I pointed out, MGM have released discs in R1 which do feature English burnt in subtitles and captions (such as The Terminator). You'll just have to wait and see what's on the R1 disc (but I agree it seems likely it will use player generated subtitles).
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#17 of 27 OFFLINE   James Reader

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Posted April 21 2003 - 10:42 AM

Quote:
Don't need to: Leave the burn-in subtitle as is and "subtitle" the subtitle... This practise is often used for translating newspaper headlines, billboards,... in other language...


The point is, newpaper headlines, billbords etc are part of the actual film as it was shot. The subtitles are not. Why not remove the burnt in subtitles if you can?

The issue isn't really the fact that the subtitles are player generated - the concept is fine. The issue is the placement and resolution of the subtitles. Let's hope HD-DVD allows for higher resolution subtitles.

One list thing - if any of you have watched the Tartan R0 PAL release of The Ring - you'll probably change your mind about player generated subtitles. The burnt in subtitles on the Ring are incredibly hard to read approximately half of the time. We were all preying for player generated subtitles of the R1 Dreamworks Ringu release (and thank God they delivered!)
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#18 of 27 OFFLINE   Matt Naglieri

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Posted April 21 2003 - 10:50 AM

Quote:
The point is, newpaper headlines, billbords etc are part of the actual film as it was shot. The subtitles are not. Why not remove the burnt in subtitles if you can?


I think what was meant was to use this similar practice and apply it to the current situation.


Quote:
I know other discs have the same problem, and R1 discs have the same issue too (but remember there's FRENCH Canadians who would appriciate FRENCH subtitles and I belive SPANISH is almost as popular as English in some parts of America...)


But french canadians get bilingual packaging and a french language track. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened soon.


Quote:
The issue isn't really the fact that the subtitles are player generated - the concept is fine. The issue is the placement and resolution of the subtitles. Let's hope HD-DVD allows for higher resolution subtitles.


This would be an acceptable solution to me but I have seen generated subtitles on standard dvd's that do not look bad at all. What I don't get is why some are decent and some are almost as large as the picture being displayed on the screen.

#19 of 27 OFFLINE   James Reader

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Posted April 21 2003 - 11:04 AM

Quote:
quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The point is, newspaper headlines, billboards etc are part of the actual film as it was shot. The subtitles are not. Why not remove the burnt in subtitles if you can?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I think what was meant was to use this similar practice and apply it to the current situation.

The point is, the text in books, papers and signs is exposed as part of the frame. You cannot remove it and replace it without editing an insert (which some films actually do on their overseas release - most do not).

Subtitles are added in post production. For foreign language releases why not simply not add them in the first place?

Quote:
But French Canadians get bilingual packaging and a French language track.


Lots of US discs have a French language track because they're the same discs in different packaging.

I'm not unsympathetic to the issue, I'm half trying to explain why they do it, and half telling you to play "wait-and-see" on the R1 release. Ranting and raving about a European disc isn't helping your case.
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#20 of 27 OFFLINE   Matt Naglieri

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Posted April 21 2003 - 11:14 AM

James

I'm sorry if you think i'm ranting and raving about just this disc. My only intention in this post was to say hey this might happen here too as it does many times. If this concerns you check back on June 3rd to see if that is the case.

I rarely get out the theater and I am very disappointed when I purchase a major film in region 1 and find this problem.

The way I am interpreting what Vincent said would be something like this.

North Korean Military Base
"North Korean Military Base"

The first being burned into the film the second being generated as an option by the user if desired.

I hope I clarified any confusion about my initial intention.


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