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I can not believe how expensive synergy type aluminum is!


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21 replies to this topic

#1 of 22 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted April 14 2003 - 11:27 AM

I have been looking, and looking, and looking and, well you
get the idea.. At audio racks since I have completely out
grown my el cheapo bush job *read: Junk* and I want something
that has an air of elegance to it..

So I found this one rack that is to die for.. $1400.00 yeah
you have a heart attack at the price! And I have of course
considered the Flexy's and then I thought well wait a sec
I can always build a Salamander Synergy knock off since
companies like McMaster Carr sell the bulk etruded leg
materials.

So I went to McMaster's web site and woah the stuff is like
$56.00 per 8' and I need at least 4 8' sections to do the
legs without having any seams.. Well scratch that idea I
guess I will just have to do the typical ol flexy but at
least I can dress it up by using tubing over the rods and
cutting the shelves differently than the "norm".

Now I have to sit back and think about how I want to do the
rack. I need at least 7 or 8 component shelvs and I want to
cover the threaded rod with brushed aluminum pipe (or just
spray paint PVC with Silver paint and clearcoat it..)

Hrmm..

Anyone done anything "different" than the typical flexy? I
am considering doing it as a 3 leg unit with 2 legs up front
and the third leg centered in the rear.
Brett DiMichele
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#2 of 22 OFFLINE   Geno

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Posted April 14 2003 - 12:49 PM

Brett, what is your budget? if you want elagance dont you have to pay for it?

I had an idea for a rack where you have 4 poles and on each pole there were flat tabs that hung out. well each "tab" is suposed to hold the foot of the component. to keep it all sturdy, you'd have to connect the poles somehow, but since you were looking for ideas, i thought i'd at least try to help.

#3 of 22 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted April 14 2003 - 05:50 PM

Geno,

No I don't think Elegant should mean it costs $1600.00....

This is the AV Rack I have taken a shine to.

Posted Image


If I can get my one friend (machinist) to machine me 6 or
7 of the circular connectors out of aluminium (they don't
have to be as ornate as the one's shown above) then I think
I can handle the rest for a paultry sum. Instead of using
channel aluminum like they did I will buy 3 8' sections of
the 4 sided T-Slot extrusions like those found on the
Salamander Synergy racks ($150.00 for 3 8' sections) and
then use solid oak for the stanchions beteen the 3 legs and
the center section.

I would gun drill all the way through the oak beams and run
all thread through the center and have a counterbore on the
end of the oak beam where it connects to the leg and use a
nut and washer. Not sure what I would do on the other end
where the oak beam connects to the center section. I could
just tap the aluminum and have the all thread locktighted
into the aluminum.

I would spend up to $300.00 on a prefab rack so I guess the
same can apply to DIY. I think this rack could be kloned for
less than $250.00 the biggest part of that expenditure being
the extrusions from McMaster Carr.


(oops I just checked the image out again and I see this is
a 4 leg design.. That's $200.00 just for the aluminum extrusions..)

Hurm...
Brett DiMichele
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#4 of 22 OFFLINE   George W

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Posted April 14 2003 - 06:00 PM

Now that is a sexy rack, I must say. One thing to consider is that although the picture shows a four legged rack, it doesn't necessarily have to be an exact copy. I'm curious though, even with the design pictured, where do the component legs sit, balanced on the beams? Seems a little precarious to me, I guess you could just lay the component across the struts forgoing the component feet, but I don't know if that would effect the sound, a matter of some debate I'd imagine. It's a bummer that aluminum costs that much. I'll eventually build my own rack and was hoping it was a lot cheaper....perhaps you could do the legs out of a different type of wood? Wouldn't look quite as good I suppose but if done right could still look very cool. Good luck with your project.

#5 of 22 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted April 14 2003 - 06:35 PM

George,

Your certainly right I do not have to copy it exactly and
it's not going to be a 100% Klone. I decided just to do 3
legs instead of 4.

To put the components on (on the bought version) they give
you polymer clips that snap onto the wooden beams and you
then position them under the component.

Since my version would be scratch built I wouldn't have
those fancy polymer clips but I could instead use some brass
spike kits from Parts Express ($19.00 for 4 spikes and cups)
I use these on my TurnTable and they work very well. They
look similar to the Lovan decoupling spikes.

3 Legs would cost $150.00 give or take a few dollars and
then I would need to buy some good oak for the beams and see
if I could sheister one of my buds into machining the centers
for free (or for beer..).

I am going to have to talk to my bud this weekend and show
him the picture and see what he says.. Heck he may even be
able to machine them just like the picture if he feels like
sitting down and writing a program for the Haas Milling
Center.

I love that rack.. But the day I pay $1600.00 for a dang
rack? No farking way!
Brett DiMichele
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#6 of 22 OFFLINE   Geno

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Posted April 14 2003 - 07:03 PM

OOOH I like I like Posted Image
Can your friend try to make the legs too? It looks like bent or folded sheet metal with increment hole in them for diff heighths. PS if you get the cost down, im sure youll be able to sell them here at HTF for that elegant $1600
I like your style

#7 of 22 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted April 14 2003 - 07:27 PM

Geno,

Thanks.. I like my style too.. The problem is... I can't
afford my own tastes! Posted Image

The legs on the Finite Elemente` Spider are made out of
aluminium extrusions and as such would be signifigantly
more ridgid than a simple bent steel design. And I have
never seen an extrusion like that for sale they most likely
own the dies to manufacture that shape.

This is the material I want to use for the legs:
Posted Image

Or...

Posted Image

Or...

Posted Image

I am thinking that #2 would look very close to what Finite
Elemente` uses.. Not "exact" but close enough for me..
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#8 of 22 OFFLINE   Chris Carswell

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Posted April 14 2003 - 07:53 PM

What is the pg# or url those bars are listed at mcmaster?
It's better to have loved and lost, than never to have had a good pair of speakers at all !!!

#9 of 22 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted April 14 2003 - 08:04 PM

Chris,

Page # 1468 on the web and catalog.
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#10 of 22 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted April 15 2003 - 10:50 AM

Okay here is a quickie render I put together using the
square T Slot material. The finished product would have the
black plastic end caps on the top's of the extrusions and
possibly black plastic inserts covering the T Slots that
are not used.

Posted Image
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#11 of 22 OFFLINE   Chris Keen

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Posted April 15 2003 - 12:55 PM

Not sure on prices, but here are a few other sources for extruded aluminum:

www.8020.net/

http://www.rexroth.s....ew.asp?menu=15

I knew I had these bookmarked, it was just a beyotch to find'em.
Chris
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#12 of 22 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted April 15 2003 - 01:46 PM

Chris,

You da man! I bookmarked those sites.. 80/20 has a ton more
shapes available!

All I need to do now is see if I can get one of my friends
to machine 7 or 8 round pieces for the centers.. Most of
my buds are machinists by trade so one of them has to be
able to help me out Posted Image
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#13 of 22 OFFLINE   Rob Formica

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Posted April 15 2003 - 02:29 PM

Wouldn't you be able to use simple tube cut into sections of several inches to make the center pieces rather than getting them "machined"? Then cut the end of your wood bars with a matching hole saw, screw together, and bingo!? Posted Image

Just a thought...
Rob
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#14 of 22 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted April 15 2003 - 04:08 PM

Rob,

I don't think thin wall tubing would be strong enough.
Essentialy with this design all of the force will be
placed on those center rings they have to distribute
all of the weight and that could be a couple hundred
pounds easily.

I think that 1/2" thick machined aluminum should be
adequate enough to support the loads placed on the
tri beams (plus it will look better?) Posted Image

getting the centers machined should not be an issue
worst case scenario I have a co-worker who has his
own lathe and mill at home and he would do it for me
he has done things in the past for me.
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#15 of 22 OFFLINE   Michael R Price

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Posted April 16 2003 - 10:34 AM

Brett,

First, very neat idea for the rack. The 8020 stuff you've shown makes it very easy to make something non-permanent - just drop in the little mounting thingies in the side and tighten, so you could play with the design a bit. However, doing so (especially removing things) is a pain especially in cramped places. I would also consider just buying some nice textured square tubing (or maybe bronze) and bolting things to it. Just wanted to let you know, since my school built a robot using those exact extrusions and the result was a little difficult to work with. Difficult in that attaching and detaching things is not as easy as it looks, but easy in that you don't have to find another 3 feet of aluminum when you screw up.

#16 of 22 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted April 16 2003 - 05:17 PM

Mike,

Thanks for the heads up. Honestly though once the components
are in place they won't be moving much. And adjusting the
rack will be as simple as loosening a couple nuts and just
dropping or raising the center sections. (and I have more
than enough room behind my current rack to get at everything
so space isn't much of an issue either.)

Thanks again for the info! Posted Image
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#17 of 22 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted April 17 2003 - 07:43 PM

I sent an email to my co-worker today and I expect to hear
back from him in the morning about whether or not he can
machine 8 of the rings for me. I gave him rough figures for
the rings 3" OD 2.5" ID and 2" deep should be adequate.

He has a bead blasting cabinent so I told him just get them
machined relatively smooth then hit them with the bead blaster
because I want that satin finish on those pieces.

I will have to figure out the angles I want to mount the
hard wood beams to the centers and then drill the inside
of the beams the whole way through and also drill the center
pieces and I will have to radius the beams where the touch
the centers so that they fit together. I will run allthread
all the way through the beams, through the centers and use
a locking nut (nylon insert nuts) and the allthread will go
into the T-Slots on the legs and will enguage the T-Slot
Locking Tabs which you slide up inside the legs. The shelvs
will be infinately adjustable up or down and the beams could
also be relocated by drilling different holes into the center
sections in different indexed locations.
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#18 of 22 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted April 23 2003 - 09:50 AM

Okay here is my progress thus far tracking down the raw
materials. To order the 80/20 stuff go to www.reidtool.com
they sell by the inch no minimum orders and it's cheap
compared to McMaster Carr

Here is the price breakdown, catalog page and quantities
needed for the rack. This price does not include the centers
which need to be custom machined or the price of wood beams.

I expect when all said and done to have about $250.00 total
into the rack that will hold and isolate 8 components. This
is cheaper than most B-B, C-C junk racks and it's a true
"audiophile" worthy piece. Now quick, someone find me an
audiophile??? Posted Image

-----------------------------------------------------------
Part Number Page Number Price Each

AES1515(lite) Page 381 $0.45 Per Inch
1.5" Square Need 3 sections 4.5' in length @ $72.90

AES2030 Page 383 $1.35Ea
End Caps Need 6 total $8.10

AES2110 Page 382 $3.50Ea
T-Slot Cover Need 7 total $24.50

AES3278 Page 384 $0.27Ea
T-Nut 5/16-18 Thread Need 30 $8.10
RSB-15 Page 168 $2.63
Tapered Square Isolation Pads (50)
RSB-35 Page 168 $5.60
Hemispherical Isolation Pads (49)
TR-80 Page 458 $1.38Ea
5/16-18 AllThread 36" Long Need 24 $33.12
DK-126 Page 9 $0.75Ea
Knob W/Thru Hole Need 24 $18.00
Total $172.95
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#19 of 22 OFFLINE   Chris Carswell

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Posted April 23 2003 - 10:08 AM

Where are the AES part#'s comming from? Not www.reidtool.com or http://www.mcmaster.com/
LMK Posted Image
It's better to have loved and lost, than never to have had a good pair of speakers at all !!!

#20 of 22 Guest_Anthony_Gomez_*

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Posted April 23 2003 - 10:18 AM

thanks to this thread, we made a mid design halt last week on a Unistrut system and are now using 8020. 7 revisions later, I have a final design. Posted Image