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BFD owners/BruceD. I think I'm an idiot!


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14 replies to this topic

#1 of 15 OFFLINE   Steve Morgan

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Posted April 07 2003 - 08:15 AM

I have had my BFD for about 8 months now. I sit in an area where I can not see the led / blinking lights on the BFD.Today I happen to sit on the couch and was watching Blade II and was able to see the led's. Wow, at -10 dbs on my MC-1 the red light was flashing constantly, yeow! clip level. I have a Paradigm Servo 15a and a Von Schweikert S/3 sub and was thinking about upgrading due to lack of impact bass. Well I had the sub level at +4 in the speaker levels. I then adjusted the subs to the mains using the subs volume control. Both subs were at about 9:00 or 10:00 not very high for a 7500+ cubic ft. room.
I went back and adjusted the sub output level in the MC-1's speaker output menu to -3.5 and then adjusted the subs to the mains. This time the Servo 15's volume control was at 11:00 and the VSA s/3 was a little over that. Whoa, what a difference in impact! Finally hit you in the chest bass!
I think in the BFD set up site (snapbug) where he addresses the input levels he suggests his unit was at +3 so when initially setting mine I went up instead of down on the MC-1's speaker level menu. Bruce, if you read this does this make sense? I was in the process of upgrading my Servo 15 thinking with the S/3 it just wasn't doing the job in this large room. I am going to take a few days and re-evaluate. Any comments from BFD owners or experts.:b This is one of those slap yourself in the head moments. Better a slap in the head than spending 3k on a new sub!
Steve

#2 of 15 OFFLINE   Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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Posted April 07 2003 - 10:42 AM

So If I understand this, Steve, you lowered the signal going into the BFD and raised the level of the subs?

Sounds like the BFD’ output was “brick-walled” once it hit clipping. I don’t have a lot of hands-on experience with digital equipment like this, but I have seen people EQing with the BFD who applied so many cut filters that it would not pass a signal out the other end. So I guess it makes sense that it would give a similar reaction at the other extreme.

What does surprise me, though, is that a piece of consumer gear like the MC-1 could generate a hot enough signal to send a piece of pro audio gear into clipping.

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Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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#3 of 15 OFFLINE   Steve Morgan

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Posted April 07 2003 - 03:25 PM

Wayne,
Thats what was happening. So every loud or semi loud bass scene was sending the unit into clipping. Bass was terrible and I heard chuffing on the VSA where there should not have been.
Steve

#4 of 15 OFFLINE   Allen Ross

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Posted April 07 2003 - 04:43 PM

wayne, don't be so suprised i can clip my BDF with only my onkyo at -20bd and my sub level at +4, granted i have it properly set at -1 now, i am working that PE amp just a little bit more, still only at about 11 oclock plenty of head room, thats how i like it.


also what are your settings? ig you are giving it any sort of big gain on any setting it will clip alot easier. when i have it off my leds only go to 3-5 maybe but when the filleters that have about a +10db total i can get cliping.

so try and lower the peaks instead of pulling the dips because it wont strain the BFD to lower the power output, and you can hopfully crank your sub just a little bit more.

Also you can do a -42db if i am not mistaken, where you can only do a +16db which explains the clipping not a lot of head room, check out how big the PSU is on it on my last link
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#5 of 15 OFFLINE   Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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Posted April 08 2003 - 09:15 AM

Hmm, makes sense that the way the filters are set (i.e., a lot of them at boost) could contribute to maxing out the BFD’s headroom.

I don’t see any need to go and re-adjust all the filters, though. Reducing the incoming signal like Steve did accomplishes the same thing.

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Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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#6 of 15 OFFLINE   Allen Ross

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Posted April 08 2003 - 05:29 PM

i am just saying thats how this PA grade equipemnt can be maxed out with such a small output. also isn't the button on the back set to -10 instead of +4? for home listening.
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#7 of 15 OFFLINE   Rob Formica

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Posted April 09 2003 - 06:14 AM

This may seem like a newbie question, but doesn't using the EQ force you to set your main speakers to "small" and send all the low frequencies to your sub/EQ combo? I don't have a BFD but I have a room peak around 45Hz (and it's associated room decay) that I'd like to flatten. I use my mains set at the "large" setting… as they play very well down to below 37Hz (I think their port is tuned around 35Hz)... If I were to EQ only my sub, my understanding is this peak will remain since it's fed to both the sub and my mains? I don't want to EQ my mains and they aren't designed to bi-amped.
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#8 of 15 OFFLINE   Allen Ross

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Posted April 09 2003 - 06:30 AM

well if you are testing your mains and you get a peak at 45 like you said then yes. right now i have mine just doing my sub. so it only affects the signal that is sent to it, i have my XO on my recieve set to 80 so my mains don't go that low (or at levels that would cause a peak).

What are you crossing your mains/eveything off at?

I think i would rather have my sub take over on anything lower then the XO because i know it can handle what ever i can give it, wheres my mains arn't so strong.
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#9 of 15 OFFLINE   Brian-K-Owens

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Posted April 09 2003 - 07:18 AM

I had to buy line attenuators from PE for this same problem. With too much boost in the lower frequencies, small inputs would clip easily. Once the BFD lights the red lights on the level meters, it makes the sound very distorted (There is even a paragraph in the manual saying something about due to the digital processing and the design of the unit, clipping the input/output will go directly from a clean sound to a terrible sound). Cutting the input level and increasing the amp's gain made a world of difference for me.

Brian
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#10 of 15 OFFLINE   Steve Morgan

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Posted April 09 2003 - 07:56 AM

I have my BFD just eq'ing 2 subs.I now have the subs level in the pre/pro speaker level menu set to -4. On intense bass scenes just for a second it might hit the red mark.
Another question. When using both channels do both left and right engine lights have to be on? Does -4 seem to be excessive on my input level?
Thanks,
Steve

#11 of 15 OFFLINE   Allen Ross

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Posted April 09 2003 - 08:00 AM

i belive that you have to have both engines on to have both filters on. although i don't know if the engines can be split up with different settings (different subs differnt characteristics)

you will know when you see both chanels lighting up, with one engine on i get nothing (the one i am not using) but when i have the other one on i can see the level.
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#12 of 15 OFFLINE   Brian-K-Owens

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Posted April 09 2003 - 08:12 AM

The level is dependent on the output of you pre-processor AND the amount of boost you have set. When I have all of the boost settings really low, then I cannot peak the level meters, even with my pre-processor's sub out setting on +10. When I add a lot of boost, I can set the sub output to -10 on my pre-processor, and I still send the level meters into the red. That is why I added the line attenuators. If you are sending the level meters into the red, I would reduce the subwoofer output level of the pre-processor.

When you use both channels, then both level lights are on. When you are using only one channel, the level lights only light for that one channel, but the filter # lights (the 12 red lights to the right of the level lights) that are being used are on for both channels, as they cannot be adjusted independently in parametric EQ mode.

Brian
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#13 of 15 OFFLINE   Steve Morgan

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Posted April 09 2003 - 02:29 PM

Brian,
Both of my level lights are working. My left engine light is light but the right is not. I set the left engine for the servo15 and the right engine for the VSA S/3. So what am I doing right or wrong?
Steve

#14 of 15 OFFLINE   Brian-K-Owens

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Posted April 10 2003 - 12:43 AM

not sure. . . sorry. If I understand correctly, you are using the BFD in EQ mode, you are using both inputs/outputs, the level lights show the input to both channels, but only the left side of the 12 lights that show which filters are being used are on?

We use a pair of these at our church as feedback destroyers, and I know as a feedback destroyer, the channels can be configured independently, but when I use my BFD as a parametric EQ, the right and left channels are always the same. If they can be different, I did not know they could.

Maybe someone else knows what is wrong. I will read over my manual tonight and see if I see what may be wrong. . .If I have misunderstood what you are saying, let me know.

Brian
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#15 of 15 OFFLINE   bruin

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Posted April 12 2003 - 09:06 AM

Thank for all the info regarding how to use te BFD! Using the excel spreadsheet from that bfd "how to" site I came upt with the following graph.
Sub Response Graph

Overall, is this an ok graph? Should I try a few more times?
Should I try to raise that dip around 25hz?
63Hz is a tough frequency to fix!

Any help will be appreciated.