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Kenwood VR-6070 closeout at BB: worth it?


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#41 of 114 RobWil

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Posted May 01 2003 - 04:23 AM

Quote:
I don't think your math is correct. 0.7% THD = 70% of what exactly.


It equals 70% of 1. When you're talking decimals, 1 = 100%.
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#42 of 114 Steve_Moo

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Posted May 01 2003 - 04:24 AM

Rob think about what you are saying. 1st it is not .01 or .7 it is .01% and .7% which is a huge differnce between the 2.

your philosophy would be right if it stated .01 or .7 but it does not it states .7% which is 7/10% of 1%.

Some more examples .01% = 1/100% of 1%
.001 = 1/1000% of 1%

Got it now.

#43 of 114 RobWil

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Posted May 01 2003 - 04:29 AM

Quote:
Got it now.

Sheesh...I'm an idiot :b
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#44 of 114 RobWil

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Posted May 01 2003 - 04:31 AM

Quote:
Rob think about what you are saying. 1st it is not .01 or .7 it is .01% and .7%

Doh! OK .... but take away the % and I was right! Posted Image
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#45 of 114 Steve_Moo

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Posted May 01 2003 - 04:31 AM

There you go Rob do Practice Problem 3 and read the answer from your math link. This should give everyone the answer. remember it is .7% and according to that problem would = .007

#46 of 114 RobWil

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Posted May 01 2003 - 04:37 AM

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Problem 3: Convert 0.45% to a fraction, to a decimal.


Ok.....0.45% as a fraction would be 45/10000
And... 0.45% as a decimal would be 0.0045????

Did I get it?? Posted Image
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#47 of 114 RobWil

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Posted May 01 2003 - 04:48 AM

Excerpt.....
"`THD' is for total harmonic distortion, and is a measure of the how much a certain device may distort a signal. These figures are usually given as percentages. It is believed that THD figures below approximately 0.1% are inaudible. However, it should be realized that distortion adds, so that if a head unit, equalizer, signal processor, crossover, amplifier and speaker are all rated at "no greater than 0.1%THD", together, they could produce 0.6%THD, which could be noticeable in the output."

So, whether or not I havemyheadupmyass as far as math goes,
.7% THD can be significant, especially when "added" to the THD of other components, as the above explanation above indicates.

Or do I still need to extract my head? Posted Image
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#48 of 114 Steve_Moo

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Posted May 01 2003 - 05:01 AM

I agree but again don't read to much into what these guru's say let you ears decide. I hear barely no difference in my Rears when I have my dedicated Acurus Amp hooked up to them or when I have the Kenwood 6070 hooked up to them so my opinion is that they are full of crap in this instance or my ears are terrible.

#49 of 114 ScottRCapt

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Posted May 01 2003 - 05:25 AM

Geez Guy's

Just remove all source material from your VR6060 or VR6070 {they Still do have the very same AMP and POWER supply- irregardless of what THX tag you put on it} remove all source material, like I was saying... And then turn up the volume slowly.

You will hear your .7% whether you think it is audible or not, it will sound like Hisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.

That Hissssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss is there in every HT signal you listen to that is processed through more than the front three speakers. At low volume it is not noticeable, at high volume, with a source material such as a loud DVD action scene, you still may not be able to pick out that Hisssssssssssssssssssssss with your human ears. But unfortunately, your very precious speakers will be subjected to processing that Hissssssssssssssssssss, which at high volume with a source material like a DVD action scene, actually sounds more like rumble, pop, growl....

When most people here testify that they enjoy the difference when they upgrade to a separate amp/pre amp combo. They mention that they clearly hear more "Detail" in the source material. This is usually attributed to higher per channel power derived from separates, but the secret usually is that the more expensive and dedicated separates are designed with better circuits and better components inside the box. This results in very low THD!

Some here even say that the separates they "upgrade" with have lower watts per channel than their original receiver, yet they hear more detail in their source material, like it was magic! No, it's not magic, it is just that the unit they upgraded to was designed to do just one thing and do it well, be process the source material (pre-amp) or send that source material to the speakers (amp).

1% THD was an unheard of amount of distortion back in the old audiophile day's. Sure, radio shack car stereo's might have that amount, but you would never see anything higher than .0? in any home stereo equipment/receivers that were worth owning.

I think that still holds true.Posted Image

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#50 of 114 Steve_Moo

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Posted May 01 2003 - 05:52 AM

I think the .7% is a error. Take a look at this from there website. Why do they have the Surrounds L/R saying .09 THD at 8 Ohms and then underneath they again say LSurround/RSurround at .7% THD at 8 Ohms. The surround Back is actually rated at .09% THD also according to there website.

By the way just put in Pod Race Scene from Star Wars I and cranked it up and no hiss from my surrounds or surround rears. I think you are looking at a mis-print or error from there website.

http://kenwoodusa.co...e...uctI d=2452

POWER RATINGS
- Stereo Power: 100 Watts per Channel (Left/Right, 20Hz - 20kHz, 0.09% THD, 8 ohms)
- Surround Power (Center): 100 Watts (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.09% THD, 8 ohms)
- Surround Power (Left/Right): 100 Watts + 100 Watts (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.09% THD, 8 ohms)
- Surround Power (LSurround/RSurround): 100 Watts + 100 Watts (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.7% THD, 8 ohms)
- Surround Power (Selectable--Subwoofer/Surround Back): 100 Watts (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.09% THD, 8 ohms)

See how it labels the surrounds twice. The surround rear is the last rating there and the surrounds are there twice 1 stating a 0.09%THD and the other stating a 0.7%THD

#51 of 114 StevieP

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Posted May 01 2003 - 06:04 AM

I believe the second surround rating is when it is put into the surround mode as opposed to stereo mode!

Sony plays the same rating game with their "DE" line.

#52 of 114 RobWil

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Posted May 01 2003 - 06:06 AM

Quote:
Take a look at this from there website. Why do they have the Surrounds L/R saying .09 THD at 8 Ohms and then underneath they again say LSurround/RSurround at .7% THD at 8 Ohms.


Yeah...I've seen that and it's very confusing. Makes you go 'huh?'. I think I just figured it out though.
I think it's giving the specs for the front L/R twice...once for just stereo and again for surround. So when it says:
Surround Power (Left/Right): 100 Watts + 100 Watts (20Hz - 20kHz, 0.09% THD, 8 ohms)
it's talking about the FRONT L/R speakers when you're in a Surround mode, i.e. all 5 speakers being driven at once.
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#53 of 114 RobWil

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Posted May 01 2003 - 06:07 AM

Ooops! Stevie beat me to it Posted Image
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#54 of 114 Bill Will

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Posted May 01 2003 - 06:10 AM

Steve, I would put it this way! If not the Kenwood what receiver would you buy for $300 Posted Image

#55 of 114 Steve_Moo

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Posted May 01 2003 - 06:32 AM

I thinks its a great Receiver for $279. Again I use it for a Pre/Pro and will probably sell within a month or so. I like trying out Receivers. Within the last year I have had a Pioneer Elite VSX-45TX, Denon AVR-3803, Onkyo TX-DS797, Rotel RSP-976 Pre/Pro.

I'm still a little confused on the THD. Doesn't THX certification have very high standards and specs before they put the THX logo on? and 2nd why would the surround back be rated at 0.09% and the surrounds be at 0.7%. That doesn't make sense. I think its a typo and would be interested if anyone has a way to test it to find out for sure. I use my Acurus Amp anyway but I couldn't tell a difference when I switched to the Kenwood's amp.

#56 of 114 RobWil

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Posted May 01 2003 - 06:35 AM

Quote> Steve, I would put it this way! If not the Kenwood what receiver would you buy for $300 >QUOTE


That's a fairly good way to put it Posted Image
That's assuming you only had $300 to spend, anyway.
What if you actually had more, but upon cursory exam the stats looked the same as the $600 receiver so you said, 'What up with dat?' and bought the cheaper one, only to find like the Capt did, that they really weren't the same.
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#57 of 114 Lee Carbray

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Posted May 01 2003 - 07:09 AM

Quote:
When most people here testify that they enjoy the difference when they upgrade to a separate amp/pre amp combo. They mention that they clearly hear more "Detail" in the source material. This is usually attributed to higher per channel power derived from separates, but the secret usually is that the more expensive and dedicated separates are designed with better circuits and better components inside the box. This results in very low THD!



So are you complaining that your $300 receiver does not sound like a multi $K system. Not really a valid argument. Simply put at this price point you have to give up something to get something in return. In this case for a unit that can actually output 92watts you give up a little distortion in the surrounds to keep the price low.

btw we get the fact that they have the same amp and power supply.


Quote:
1% THD was an unheard of amount of distortion back in the old audiophile day's. Sure, radio shack car stereo's might have that amount, but you would never see anything higher than .0? in any home stereo equipment/receivers that were worth owning.


Did I miss something I thought we were talking about an entry level receiver. Nobody is going to consider this unit Audiophile stuff. Some would argue that nothing from Kenwood is but that is another debate. If you are trying to get audiophile performance at this price, go home, it ain't going to happen. Save you money until you can get what you want. Otherwise why degrade a product that at its price has gotten good reviews and is as good as anything in its class because yours happened to be defective and you are upset that you spent money an a cooling fan instead of having Kenwood fix it.
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#58 of 114 Bill Will

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Posted May 01 2003 - 07:26 AM

Just thought I'd throw this in too. I would buy the 6070 over the new 7070 just because it's got the RF Remote & if the new one only comes in silver you can keep it. Wonder why Kenwood did away with the RF remotes? Were they having problems with them or is just the bean counters saving money again.

#59 of 114 RobWil

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Posted May 01 2003 - 07:45 AM

Quote:
and 2nd why would the surround back be rated at 0.09% and the surrounds be at 0.7%. That doesn't make sense.

That's not what it's saying. it's saying 'in surround mode' (i.e. the amp is driving all 6 channels at once) the L/R are .09...meaning the FRONT L and R. It's giving the specs for the Front L/R twice....once in stereo and again for surround mode.
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#60 of 114 RobWil

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Posted May 01 2003 - 07:51 AM

Quote:
So are you complaining that your $300 receiver does not sound like a multi $K system.


I think the point he was trying to make is that we're talking about a receiver that sold for $500 originally and is THX select having crappy amplification to the surround speakers.
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