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Velodyne HGS-18 vs. SVS PB2-Plus


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44 replies to this topic

#21 of 45 Chip E

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Posted April 08 2003 - 06:22 AM

I think running the PB2+ with one port plug would be close enough to stock. Think so Ed ? Seems like it would still be loud as hell with one plug always in.. and, still get some great bottom feeder action too..
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#22 of 45 Edward J M

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Posted April 08 2003 - 09:36 AM

Quote:
I think running the PB2+ with one port plug would be close enough to stock. Think so Ed ? Seems like it would still be loud as hell with one plug always in.. and, still get some great bottom feeder action too..


It's a tough call. A look at the in-room FR with all ports open, and with one port plugged would speak volumes (pun intended). Posted Image

There are both objective and subjective dynamics at work when a port is plugged. I can only speak from experience with my 20-39PC+ (tests run with SS filter set to 12 Hz):

With all three ports open, there is a gently rising hump starting below 30 Hz, peaking +8 dB at 25 Hz, and dropping back down to baseline again at 20 Hz. The FR then drops off pretty quickly, being -5 dB at 15 Hz. Subjectively, this tune adds a great deal of deep impact and power to HT DVDs without sounding the least bit boomy.

Conversely, with one port plugged, the in-room FR is almost ruler flat from 40 Hz down to 11 Hz. Objectively, this curve is the more accurate of the two. Subjectively, the sub loses some of that thrilling deep impact and power so endearing to HT.

So in my case, plugging a port results in the "perfect" in-room FR, but to be honest, I prefer the "less accurate" sound and power with all three ports open.

Clearly, the PB2+ will still be capable of prodigious output with one port plugged. But that may not tell the whole story on how plugging a port subjectively affects the character of the sound - that would be a personal call. Also, any FR is room-specific to a great extent, and your results may vary.

There is only one way to find out for sure - take the plunge and get a PB2+ and run it in stock tune, and with one port plugged. Generate some in room sweeps and do a bunch of listening, and decide for yourself. HT and music is decidedly and ultimately a very personal matter, and the more choices the better. And SVS clearly delivers choice in spades.

Regards,

Ed
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#23 of 45 Zack_R

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Posted April 08 2003 - 11:27 AM

My take (opinion) on the Weatherhead reviews when looking at the individual graphs are this:

There seems to be very minimal very low frequency (sub 20 hz)room gain at the microphone testing location. I say this as all the other subs (non velo and Ultra)are crashing hard below 20 hz. If there was any significant room gain, I think we would see it represented more clearly in the graphs.

With that said, the Ultras are performing beyond what a 20 hz ported design would dictate (from what I've read). Eyeballing the chart, it appears to me the Ultras are only down 2-3 db at 15 or so hz compared to their spl at 20 hz. Like Ed said, with the original driver. Whether it's the tube design or driver, real world applications may prove more dramatic than anechoic testing would indicate.

I own an Ultra and do not feel I'm missing a beatPosted Image

#24 of 45 Chris James

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Posted April 08 2003 - 12:10 PM

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I own an Ultra and do not feel I'm missing a beat


You aren't Posted Image

#25 of 45 Mike Sloan

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Posted April 08 2003 - 02:01 PM

How about the PB2+ compared to the "Denali" from Acoustic Visions?

Tumult 15" driver
(2)18" Passive Radiators
1000W Bash amp

$1700.00 is more than the PB2+...but any ideas on how these two would stack up?
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain.

#26 of 45 Jack Gilvey

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Posted April 08 2003 - 11:26 PM

There may have been a previous thread along those lines. It was probably locked, but you could try a search.
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#27 of 45 Mike Sloan

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Posted April 09 2003 - 01:19 AM

I know there was a "flame war" over the Everest/B4+ comparison...but I'll try a search with Denali...
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain.

#28 of 45 Jack Gilvey

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Posted April 09 2003 - 01:36 AM

Ahh...maybe that was it. Posted Image
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#29 of 45 David Lorenzo

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Posted April 09 2003 - 04:28 AM

As far as raw spl goes I think the PB2+ would beat a Denali. All speculation of course.

#30 of 45 Guest_Anthony_Gomez_*

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Posted April 09 2003 - 07:39 AM

I have my opinions, but I can say for a FACT that trying to compare the two will result in another flame war.

BTW, what is "raw spl" Is it the maximum attainable SPL at any frequency without any regard to any harmonic distortions?

Also as for the price comparison, lets not forget that the Denali has a real wood veneer finish and that particular SVS has textured paint (or truckbed liner spray..or something like it) and that PR's cost an order of magnitude more than ports.

#31 of 45 David Lorenzo

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Posted April 09 2003 - 08:23 AM

Hi Anthony.

I don't want to compare the 2 subs any further than this post because of the flame war that you predict. I agree that it would definately happen so this is my last post on the subject.

I just meant that the PB2+ would probably win in terms of output (kept under a reasonable distortion limit of course). Keep in mind that the Tumult would be getting 1000 watts in the Denali. So it wouldn't be near its full potential.

I think we would be talking about a very slight lead though. Maybe 1-2 dBs. This is just a guess though. They could be even or the Denali could win. Either way I'd take a Denali any day over the PB2+. Nice wood veneer and very clean output.

#32 of 45 Mike Sloan

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Posted April 09 2003 - 11:33 AM

What are the pros and cons regarding the use of PR's versus ports? I think the Denali's PR's are weighted so the F3 point on this subwoofer is approximately 18Hz. You would have to block atleast one port on the PB2+ to get into this range and I would assume that would effect the overall output. Both subs are very different in their approach...not trying to start a flame war...just interested...I would gladly have either one. I for one like the "truck-bed" liner finish...very tuff stuff...kinda manly!!
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain.

#33 of 45 Joe Wilmore

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Posted April 09 2003 - 11:51 AM

Guys, let's also remember that spl is not the end all in subwoofers. If you read the review of the Ultra vs. the HGS, the reviewer felt the HGS was better for music, and yet the Ultra measured better. I know the DIY guys don't want to hear this, but alot more goes into a subwoofer than just the best driver, a decent amp and a enclosure design.

#34 of 45 Dan Hine

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Posted April 09 2003 - 12:22 PM

Quote:
I know the DIY guys don't want to hear this, but alot more goes into a subwoofer than just the best driver, a decent amp and a enclosure design.


No, I would say you pretty much named everything. The most important part being "enclosure design." I think the SVS guys will be the first to tell you that there is nothing magical about their designs. It's the prices they offer them for that is the key. Designing a sub is easy...it's the testing of different designs (complete subs, driver/amp/alignment) to find the best compromise that is the more difficult part. And the guys at Adire know more than enough to put together good suggested alignments.
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#35 of 45 Jack Gilvey

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Posted April 09 2003 - 01:23 PM

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I know the DIY guys don't want to hear this, but alot more goes into a subwoofer than just the best driver, a decent amp and a enclosure design.

Hehe, I like that. What else is there...the air? I doubt you'll be telling the "DIY guys" anything they don't know.
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#36 of 45 Zack_R

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Posted April 09 2003 - 01:42 PM

Quote:
If you read the review of the Ultra vs. the HGS, the reviewer felt the HGS was better for music, and yet the Ultra measured better.


That was a point made in the review and ultimately we should enjoy what we pay for. But I at least wonder (looking at the graphs) if this is due to the HGS rolling off approximately 9 - 10 db between 60 and 40 hz. The Ultra on the other hand had a gradual climb of approximately 4 dbs in the same range. From 40 to 30 hz the Ultras then took a sharper turn upward from about 38 to 32hz.

For movies, the steep roll-off of the HGS is significant to me and would not represent deep impacts as well as I would prefer. Playing a 98 db sound for 30 hz and 107 db sound for 55 hz (when it should or could be 107 db for 30hz and 107 db for 55 hz) would not be desirable for me given the amount of money involved. The Ultra errors in an manner where the human hearing is less senstive and having an added bump at 30 hz may be a benefit. If not it should be fairly easy to equalize that hump down.

From a max output perspective in Brian Weatherheads room, I'd give the HGS the edge over a single Ultra from 50 - 80 hz and the Ultra the edge from 15 to 50 hz. But I'd give the Ultra the overall edge as it's variance appears less to me and would be easier to correct if needed. This is with the original driver and I would assume the new driver would have equal or greater performance. Again, can't help myself from looking at those graphsPosted Image.

He mentioned in the last sub reviewed that reference levels for his music test were 100 db. What we don't know from the info presented was if the HGS stayed flat up to the 100 db level at the testing location and therefore would not exhibit that steep 60 - 40 hz drop identified in the max testing. The servo mechansim could be a limiting factor in the max spl test but may not have been an issue in the 100 db music test. I'm sure the HGS is an awesome sub and this is probably the case for the music test but we really can't tell from the review. It would have been nice if had graphed the test sweep at the music listening levels, which, would not only be good to know but would have prevented me from typing this instead of doing my taxesPosted Image

A neat thing about the Ultra is that it has not only had plenty of max spl testing done, it also has had distortion measurements tested which verify that it is a fairly if not very accurate sub up to it's limits. Doesn't mean that you'll like how it sounds but it does mean that it can re-produce the sounds at a level where the room becomes the limiting factor.

#37 of 45 Mike Sloan

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Posted April 09 2003 - 02:23 PM

Quote:
I know the DIY guys don't want to hear this, but alot more goes into a subwoofer than just the best driver, a decent amp and a enclosure design.

I think it's "Fairy dust"....?

Joe,
don't leave us hanging.:b
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain.

#38 of 45 Guest_Anthony_Gomez_*

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Posted April 09 2003 - 02:28 PM

no, as I explained to Dan, it is that very special Glue used by ________ that will give you up to an additional 1db gain at 20hz! couple that with the acrylic and you are good to go!!!!Posted Image

#39 of 45 Haris Ellahi

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Posted April 09 2003 - 10:04 PM

How do you guys think the Klipsch RSW-15 will compare to the SVS PB2-Plus for home theater?

#40 of 45 Mike Sloan

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Posted April 10 2003 - 02:02 AM

The PB2+ would eat the Klipsch RSW-15 for lunch....I think it would exceed it in every way!
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain.


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