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Velodyne HGS-18 vs. SVS PB2-Plus


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#1 of 45 Haris Ellahi

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Posted April 04 2003 - 08:04 AM

Which of these two subwoofers would you expect to be better for home theater?

#2 of 45 steve nn

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Posted April 05 2003 - 12:37 AM

Well there is a good question Haris? To early yet for any numbers to be out on the SVS PB2-Plus as you know but considering the whole picture I think I might go with the SVS. It would be new //"can you get the 18" Vel new for close to the same cost"// and would have there money back guarantee along with there top notch costumer service. From Toms past posts on the 2+ I would expect it to hold it's own quite well in this category of subs? Should be close anyway? In the past I have ran duel Vel ct-150's which I am phasing out and they have been no slouch, but not in the same category as the 18".

#3 of 45 Brian Bunge

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Posted April 05 2003 - 12:44 AM

Considering Adire's Dharman subwoofer ($599) is equivalent to an HGS15, I'd expect the PB2+ to exceed the HGS18.
Brian Bunge
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#4 of 45 Tom Vodhanel

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Posted April 05 2003 - 05:02 AM

If both are within your budget, go with the HGS18. You might be able to find them discounted now since the *digital* HGS's are supposed to be shipping in summer/2003. And if you can find a FSR18 at the local dealer...that is even better than the HGS18.

Based only on a size/extension/distortion/output ratio...the HGS18 really has little competition...but you do pay quite a bit for it.

TV

#5 of 45 Haris Ellahi

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Posted April 05 2003 - 06:13 AM

Thanks for all the info.

Tom,

So you're saying that the Velodyne HGS-18 goes louder and deeper than the SVS PB2-Plus?

Secondly, what exactly are the new "digital" Velodyne HGS subwoofers? What will the difference be between them and the current line?

#6 of 45 Arron H

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Posted April 05 2003 - 06:35 AM

Quote:
Secondly, what exactly are the new "digital" Velodyne HGS subwoofers? What will the difference be between them and the current line?


They will be significantly more expensive than the HGS series (I believe the replacement for the HGS18 will be somewhere between $4-$5K. They are supposed to have a gizmo that automatically flattens the FR (no more need for an equalizer). I am probably oversimplifying so others please feel free to correct any blunders. Posted Image

#7 of 45 Haris Ellahi

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Posted April 05 2003 - 06:37 AM

$4,000-$5,000? Ouch.

I guess I'll stick with the SVS PB2-Plus. Posted Image

#8 of 45 Chip E

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Posted April 05 2003 - 08:31 AM

Seems to me you could buy two PB2+'s for the cost of one HGS18. That's if the estimated cost of the PB2+ is around $1299.00. Onecall has the Velo HGS18 at $2799.00
- Chip

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#9 of 45 Bill Law

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Posted April 05 2003 - 10:33 AM

Street price on HGS18 is more like $1,995.00

#10 of 45 SVS-Ron

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Posted April 05 2003 - 10:53 AM

Haris,

That's not what Tom meant. He said "little" competition, not none.

And for all intents and purposes, the PB2-Plus isn't competition anyway, it's not even available yet, whereas you can have an excellent HGS-18 tomorrow if you want.

Final component prices are just about nailed. The $1,299 ball park is as close as any we have at the moement. If we thought there was a sub that provided as much performance, at twice the price, we'd be relooking things.

So far we're OK I think ;^)

As soon as we get a final production date for our enclosures and tweak a few details that'll affect boxing and shipping we'll start talking pre-orders. It's our number one project in both R/D and Marketing so you know we're pushing hard to wrap things up.

Ron

#11 of 45 Tom Vodhanel

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Posted April 05 2003 - 01:19 PM

>>>Thanks for all the info.
Tom,So you're saying that the Velodyne HGS-18 goes louder and deeper than the SVS PB2-Plus?<<<


Yes, in the configurations I would recommend using on the PB-2+. If you had the PB-2+ in 25hz extension mode, it would outgun the big Vel in the 25-100hz range. But <25hz, the Vel would have the advantage. With the PB-2+ in 20hz mode Then I think it would still outgun the Vel from 20-100hz, but it would be close. And <20hz, the Vel would regain the advantage. If you put the PB-2+ in 16hz mode, then it would probably be a very tight race across the whole operating bandwidth of both units...12-100hz in most rooms. The HGS18 is also something like 21x21x22"(?) meaning it is a lot smaller than the PB-2+(about 30% smaller I think)...so the SVS might offer the better cost/performance ratio...but the HGS18 sure does hella-good for its size.

I would recommend leaving the PB-2+ in either 20hz, or 25hz modes though. Being limited to a single 4" flared port with an approximate 16hz tuning point will limit the dynamic capabilities of the unit. I would only guess the 16hz mode to be the best choice in either small to medium rooms(rooms <2000 cu-ft) or when extension is valued over maximum output levels. So in either of these modes(20hz or 25hz), the PB-2+ won't match the extension or the clean output capabilities of the HGS18 <20hz. At least I don't think it would...who knows, maybe we'll have a good review on it someday that says different...Posted Image


>>>Secondly, what exactly are the new "digital" Velodyne HGS subwoofers? What will the difference be between them and the current line?<<<


They are adding an easy to use on board parameric EQ that will allow the consumer to tame room induced response peaks at the key seating positions. I think everything pretty much stays the same. I'm not sure, but I think MSRP will be $3999 for the 18, $3499 for the 15, $2999 for the 12 and $2499 for the 10" versions.(or about $1000 increase across the board).


TV

#12 of 45 SC Trojan

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Posted April 05 2003 - 03:34 PM

I commend the SVS guys for being honest and upfront!! The HGS-18 is one great sub and will fit "most" applications. Got a local revel dealer to do a comparison and the velo bested the revel B15.

It really matters what you want and for what application. The most bang for the buck will probably always go to HSU, SVS and the custom Tumult guys. It is just economics on why these companies can deliver more value- commerical companies need to build into their pricing for larger overhead, print media advertising, name recognition/brand awareness and dealer margins to name a few.

#13 of 45 Haris Ellahi

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Posted April 06 2003 - 04:50 AM

Thanks for all the input guys.

Anyway, I'll wait for the SVS PB2-Plus.

#14 of 45 Demas

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Posted April 07 2003 - 02:51 AM

I'm a little perplexed, as to the Velo providing greater output than the PB2+.Firstly, in the weatherhead review, a single SVS ultra achieved 3db greater output than the velo down to 20hz all measurement statistics being equal.If a single ultra can outperform output wise, then surely the PB2+ would crush it?

I'm not 100 percent familiar with the PB2+.Isn't the PB2+ more powerful than a single ultra?

I always thought that your mid-priced units could outperform the velodyne 18", but now it seems almost unbeatable down low.I was under the impression that the 16-46pc+ could outperform the velo down low, and the other models beating the velo within their respective frequency limits.

Regards

#15 of 45 Lynn Little

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Posted April 07 2003 - 03:05 AM

"Isn't the PB2+ more powerful than a single ultra?"

Good question.

Tom (TV), how about a neat chart or something that shows how the SV subs stack up to each other?
Lynn Olan Little

#16 of 45 Tom Vodhanel

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Posted April 07 2003 - 02:30 PM

>>>Isn't the PB2+ more powerful than a single ultra?"

Good question.

Tom (TV), how about a neat chart or something that shows how the SV subs stack up to each other?<<<


Very tough for various reasons, including but not limited too...

a)we have so many subs,
b)9 of our models are passives, so we'd have to account for user amplification in some fashion
c)many of our models have variable tuning...another tough to account for factor
d)Each model has distinct design goals that may not translate well into a chart. (the PB-2+ for example, a large,affordable single powered enclosure that can fill medium/larger rooms with very good bass down to 20/25hz.)
e)it would have the potential to be mis-interpretted.


Compared to a single Ultra/500 watts(set to 20hz)...the PB-2(also set to 20hz) will have a good edge from 20-22hz and up. Tough to say exactly, but something in the 3-5dB area would be a good guess. Under 20-22hz, they'll both roll off rapidly. For anyone that can fit the PB-2+ enclosure in the room, and is looking for the best performance from 20hz and up(from a single powered SVS enclosure)...this is the choice. Even the PC_Ultra will take a back seat the to PB-2+(in the above tuning configurations). Of course the PC_Ultra will have a 12hz setting, and it will have about half the *footprint* Posted Image

TV

#17 of 45 Jeremy Stockwell

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Posted April 07 2003 - 04:58 PM

FYI PB2+ pics are up. Here.

JKS
You brought two too many.

#18 of 45 Demas

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Posted April 08 2003 - 02:15 AM

Quote:
Compared to a single Ultra/500 watts(set to 20hz)...the PB-2(also set to 20hz) will have a good edge from 20-22hz and up. Tough to say exactly, but something in the 3-5dB area would be a good guess.

If the PB-2 would allegidly provide 3-5db increase down to 20hz to the Ultra, then this would be 6-8db difference compared to the Brian Weatherhead review of the Velodyne HGS18, where he also reviews the Ultra with same benchmarking rules.

Velo 18 equals 101db@20hz compared to 110db at 20hz(dual ultra), take 6db away and this will be with only one ultra, and you end up with 104db at 20hz.I still don't know how the velo can outperform it, if the ultra can.(which provides less clean output by atleast 6-8db).I thought that the enclosure size of the ultra would provide the edge to the velodyne 18, but i probably thought wrong.

According to your speculation, the PB-2 would provide atleast twice the clean output of the velodyne 18" subwoofers down to 20hz, if not more.3-5db greater than an Ultra(together with a 3db output advantage than the velo, with a single svs ultra)An d i'm wondering why earlier you thought that the velo would outperform it. -

Quote:
So in either of these modes(20hz or 25hz), the PB-2+ won't match the extension or the clean output capabilities of the HGS18 <20hz.


I had no idea, that the Velo 18 was such a brilliant performer down below 20hz, would the 16-46pci outperform it?

Regards

#19 of 45 Randy G

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Posted April 08 2003 - 03:57 AM

In the comparisons, don't forget that the ported SVS enclosures have a bit of an advantage over the sealed/smaller Velodyne. Tom laid out the comparisons pretty darned well, IMHO.

#20 of 45 Edward J M

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Posted April 08 2003 - 06:07 AM

Demas:

Tom clearly qualified his statement to award the Velo the advantage only below 20 Hz and only when the PB2+ is either in the 25 or 20 Hz tune mode.

Yes, the Velo is definitely a bottom feeder. Looking at the Weatherhead review FR chart for the big Velo, it clearly hangs in there, remaining flat from 30 Hz down to below 15 Hz.

Quote:
I had no idea, that the Velo 18 was such a brilliant performer down below 20hz, would the 16-46pci outperform it?


I seriously doubt a 16-46 PCi would outgun the Velo 18 below 20 Hz, but I'm quite certain a 16-46 PC+ would come darn close. The 16-46 PC+ offers a solid 5-6 dB advantage in maximum output below 30 Hz over the 16-46 PCi.

FWIW, the Ultras in the Weatherhead shootout were equipped with the original driver. The current production driver for the Ultra is the TC Sounds TV12. The TV12 holds a 1.5 dB advantage over the original Ultra driver. So when you are crunching the numbers for how badly a single or dual Ultra stomped on the Velo, just add 1.5 dB to the Ultra number.

So to "re-crunch" your numbers, all other things being equal and using the Weatherhead review as a framework:

Velo 18: 101 dB at 20 Hz (Weatherhead)
Dual Ultra w/original driver: 110 dB at 20 Hz (Weatherhead)
Dual Ultra w/current TV12 driver: 111.5 dB at 20 Hz (estimate)
Single Ultra w/current TV12 driver: 105.5 dB @ 20 Hz (estimate)
Single PB2+ in 20 Hz tune: 108.5-110.5 dB at 20 Hz (estimate)

I think the thing to remember is that the PB2+ is clearly tailored to generate prodigious output in the 25 Hz and above region, albeit with tuning capability below 25 Hz with some associated loss in output. It is not designed to drop into the teens with extreme authority - the best SV sub for that job is the 16-46 enclosure.

SV comes as close as any company to providing a "one sub does it all" concept. With that said, each model and each size enclosure clearly has an intended optimum operating range. It is up to the user to select which sub best fits his needs, and run the sub in the stock configuration most of the time.

Regards,

Ed
Ed Mullen
Director - Technology and Customer Relations

SVS

www.svsound.com

"What we do in life, echoes in eternity."



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