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Will this make a difference to my laserdisc picture ?


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#1 of 21 OFFLINE   Mark-C

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Posted April 03 2003 - 07:18 AM

I have a Pioneer CLD-515 Laserdisc player running through a Panasonic PT AE100 projector using composite video.
Will this video converter improve the picture any ?

http://www.keene.co....ystem/keene.htm
Bottom right hand corner.

Thanks

#2 of 21 OFFLINE   Jonathan Burk

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Posted April 03 2003 - 08:06 AM

Whatever resolution you run your projector at, you're probably involving two steps: 1. Convert the 480i output of your LD to 480p. 2. Convert the 480p to your projector's resolution. The box you linked to seems to take care of the first step, but your projector will still be doing the second step. Since I am not familiar with your projector, I couldn't say whether you'd see an improvement. Your best bet would be to find other owners of the unit, and get their opinions. Or get one of those boxes with the option to return it. Do a quick a comparison, and it should be obvious which is the better performer. As a HTPC man, I have to ask whether you've considered the HTPC route?

#3 of 21 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted April 03 2003 - 12:40 PM

Mark, I think you'd be taking a chance if you didn't have return privledges. The known quantity you should maybe take aim on is the DVDO iscans, V1 or V2. Jonathan's HTPC is a good idea but certainly more expensive. I can't remember the model # but the hotest card out is a Hollo, I think it's spelled with no 'W" (?), card. A friend of mine has been experimenting with it and 3 of the best players and he sez that the card raises his LD-S9 up to the level of his HLD's X0 & X9. Ultimately, this is the best approach. The iscan would be the easier, cheaper, fairly good approach.

A better player wouldn't hurt either. I think the 515 is about like a CLD-505 over here...? It looks like it and wieghs about the same. Average 50 db video performance for NTSC. Pioneer sells players, or did, by the pound. I bet the 515 weighs about 9 lb's? The 515, is it PAL capable? I thinkin' it's not but I'm not positive.

BTW, Jonthan LD signal should rightly be 410i to 440i dependent upou player, that's NTSC. PAL has more lines for LD, I forget the exact count. Mark knows...! Best wishes guyz!Posted Image
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#4 of 21 OFFLINE   Tony Kwong

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Posted April 03 2003 - 01:16 PM

I'm not familar with this particular product, but scanconverters/doublers/scalers can make the LD picture better or even worse. Stick with the iscans or maybe one of the viewsonics scalers... Rach, that will be Immersive Inc's Holo3Dgraph PCI card. It's one fine piece of hardware! I've used it on my NEC 6PG CRT projector and X9, that's why I've been very quite on the forum since! I can finally watch SDTV and LD without complaining...
--/
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#5 of 21 OFFLINE   Allan Jayne

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Posted April 04 2003 - 12:07 AM

Laserdisk requires a comb filter. If the player outputs S-video, there is a comb filter in the player. The comb filter in this Keene gadget is of unknown quality, while I can attest that the comb filters in iScan units are quite good. I haven't auditioned the Keene unit nor read any reviews thus I cannot say that its de-interlacing is other than unknown either.

Rachel: I disagree, laserdisk is 480i, rarely labeled 525i (NTSC) or 576i, often labeled 625i (PAL), not 410i or 440i.

Video hints:
http://members.aol.c...ynejr/video.htm
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#6 of 21 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted April 04 2003 - 01:16 PM

Auh Allan, since that's the size of the frame, si? 410-440 is the NTSC lines players generate. What's crossed your mind Mark? Best wishes guyz!
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#7 of 21 OFFLINE   Mark-C

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Posted April 04 2003 - 11:03 PM

I phoned up the company and they said I could have a weeks trial, so I think I'll give it a go. If it accept S-Video input, doesn't that mean it will have a comb filter in it ?

#8 of 21 OFFLINE   Brian Fitterman

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Posted April 05 2003 - 01:54 AM

If you use S-Video out of your player, then you are using the comb filter of the player, not the unit. If it has a better comb filer, then you would use the composite output of the laserdisc player.
My Home Theater - Anthem AVM-30, Krell KAV-2250, Von Schweikert VR4 GenIII SE, Mits HDTV, Pioneer 59avi...

#9 of 21 OFFLINE   Mark-C

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Posted April 05 2003 - 04:07 AM

My player only has composite. What I meant was, does the converter have to have a comb filter if it can input S-Video. It would come out of my player composite and leave the converter VGA into the projector. will it have gone through any comb filter during that process ?

#10 of 21 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted April 05 2003 - 07:42 AM

Allan needs to answer that question Mark. I think so...? In short, the signal will be upconverted and that's where the magic or horror will occur. Good luck with the new toy. If it performs it would be a bargain. A CLD-79/704 or better wouldn't hurt your quest either, but I quess you've been hearing that already....? Best wishes!Posted Image
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#11 of 21 OFFLINE   Mark-C

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Posted April 06 2003 - 07:36 AM

The best sort of player I could hope to get second hand in the UK is a Pioneer 2950, is it worth the change ??

#12 of 21 OFFLINE   Lewis Besze

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Posted April 07 2003 - 01:27 AM

[quote] Auh Allan, since that's the size of the frame, si? 410-440 is the NTSC lines players generate [quote] That's right,but that includes the black bars too.[if the film in ws]

#13 of 21 OFFLINE   Allan Jayne

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Posted April 07 2003 - 03:00 AM

The 410 to 440 referred to with laser disk is a technical figure. It means that the smallest alternating dark and light dots that can be reproduced when in a row are at a spacing no less than 1/410'th the diameter of the largest circle that fits in the screen assuming a 4:3 picture shape. (The offical number is 425 for laser disk or 330 for NTSC broadcasts or 440 all the way across the screen for NTSC broadcasts) The number of scan lines is the same as for DVD or ordinary TV broadcasts, about 480 holding the picture plus any pre-recorded black letterbox bars. The chain of video processing goes: composite via comb filter to S-video via color decoder to component video via transcoder to RGB. If the video comes out of the LD player as composite but goes into the TV as RGB, somewhere in between there has to be a comb filter, or a less expensive poorer quality substitue such as a notch filter. Very few A/V receivers have such a filter and without that, will not deliver anything from their S-video output when you feed in composite. All de-interlacers and scalers with composite inputs have comb filters (or notch filters).
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#14 of 21 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted April 07 2003 - 06:19 AM

Mark, the Brits I've chatted with about LD in the past have stated that the 2950 has a better build than the later player, the one with AC-3 out, who's model # escapes me at the moment. I think getting one is but a horizontal "upgrade". I believe your 515 is not a British model...? Did you import it from Oceania, somewhere? You could get a power converter and get an LD player from other shores. I have a 100 volt transformers for my Japanese players. You could search for a CLD-99D that has a 100-120-240 power switch on the back. It's just like the CLD-99 sans wood side panels and colour. I've seen several on E-bay in the past two years. You could search for a CLD-949 that is the equivalent of the CLD-97. They were sold in Europe if not Britan...? Pioneer short-changed the U.K. They never offically exported any of their better players to ya'all. If you're looking for a better player, look abroad. Best wishes!
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#15 of 21 OFFLINE   Mark-C

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Posted April 07 2003 - 07:35 AM

I got the 515 from the U.K. I thought the 2950 might be worth it for the S-Video out and optical out. The video converter that I might be getting doesn't have a comb filter in it according to seller.

#16 of 21 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted April 07 2003 - 01:26 PM

For the most part, S-video output is irrelevant unless you have one of the super players with a really good comb filter onboard. I remember a thread where somebody said they got a CLD-515 in South Africa. I thought it might be a far flung model. We had extensive LD threads over at AVS a few years ago with extensive participation from Brits. They all wanted to import players, some did. I know how bad the duties are, BTW.

If you're gonna put out $ for another player, you ought'a get an improvement unless you're just stockpilng players for future use. You'd get a real step-up in video performance if you snaged a CLD-79, D704, or 99. When you get up to the 99, S-video becomes useful, maybe? The 99 has their second string 3-D comb filter. It's good up to a point. Many of today' set's have an even better filter at this point. If you want Pioneer's best, you must, of course, go Japanese. The HLD-X9 and the LD-S9 have their #1 3-D ADAPTIVE Comb Filter. It's the same one that's in their current Elite sets. It rulz!Posted Image

Couldn't you snag a CLD-D704 or 79 or 99 off E-bay? There are imported players in the U.K. I'd look far and wide for them. I know about the duty!Posted Image I've chatted with U.K. owners of CLD-99's and HLD-X9's. A former adminstrators here had the Japanese equivalent of the CLD-99...I proably can't remember the exact model # but it was CLD-HG9 or thereabouts... So, there are some real players floating around over there. You could get lucky and spot one?

For you, there just isn't a domestic model to upgrade to. The 2950 and it's replacement that offered AC-3 output reportedly, offered only really average video performance. Is PAL playback in your equation? Best wishes! Posted Image
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#17 of 21 OFFLINE   greg_t

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Posted April 07 2003 - 02:14 PM

Rachael, How's your new Elite set working out for you? If I remember right, you got a 630 right? I opted for a 530 and use it with my CLD79 via composite and the LD picture keeps getting better as the set breaks in!

#18 of 21 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted April 07 2003 - 06:07 PM

Greg, I like it alot!!! I wanted the 730 but it was barely too wide for my room and wouldn't have left room for my equipment rack on either side...and keep the TV centered. I'm better off with the smaller set since there's no upper deck or even back row in my joint. It's big enough! I really haven't watched a huge number of LD's on it yet, but I've watched some of my best, AUSTIN POWERS DTS, T2 THX Squeez, GRAND HOTEL, and several Muse LD's. The Muse LD's look better than they did on my 36" tube, the better looking ones anyway. OKINAWA UNDERATER, STARGATE, and UNIVERSAL SOLDIER look real nice in Muse on the 630. OKINAWA UNDERWATER is just amazing. I'm started to get the bugs worked out of the joint. My last one is ground loop hum in my rear centre channel. I'm getting spoiled in a hurry with the 630! Best wishes!Posted Image
Rachael, the big disc cat is in real life Dot Mongur, Champion of the International Pacman Federation. You better be ready to rumble if you play Jr. Pacman with me. This is full contact Pacman and I don't just play the game, I operate it!


#19 of 21 OFFLINE   Allan Jayne

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Posted April 07 2003 - 11:49 PM

The ... and the ... have their #1 3-D ADAPTIVE Comb Filter A 3D comb filter that is not adaptive is crappy. The 3D comb filter uses material from more places (such as the in the next frame) to do the filtering. Adaptiveness is the choosing of what material to use when. The alternative of using a fixed formula or proportion of all the available choices will not give as good results. To the consumer, the terms "3D" or "motion adaptive" should both stand for a decent 3D comb filter, with adaptiveness. The words "digital" and "Y/C" are superfluous. Still, 3D comb filters do vary in quality and it takes a lot of technical explanation as to why and it takes test patterns and critical viewing to evaluate.
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#20 of 21 OFFLINE   Phil Nichols

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Posted April 08 2003 - 04:50 AM

Mark-C,

If you really want to optimize your LD images, you might want to convert to Y/Pr/Pb component coming out of your LD player using this:

http://www.avtoolbox.com/cmt-7.htm

....... Then you can keep color saturation and tint at true calibration settings without having the red/pink faces that usually result. (Thus having to turn color saturation down and also adjust tint in your display to off-calibration settings to get correct facial intonation.) Do this by using the CMT-7 and then just put a Radio Shack (or similar) attenuator in the Pr line of the component strand coming out of the back of the CMT-7 and carefully adjust the attenuator while looking at flesh tones coming from peoples' faces from a reference LD. Get the facial tones just the way you want them, thus making reds correct in the entire image. You'll now have deep, rich colors and perfect red balance simultaneously for all your LD viewing.

For ~$159, the CMT-7 should be worth a try to optimize your LD images! Posted Image

(P.S. I use a component Pr line attenuator for Satellite 1080i HD, DVD player progressive, and DVD player interlaced viewing.)
Phil




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