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Hybrid DVD-A dead!


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#1 of 59 OFFLINE   Seth_L

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Posted March 31 2003 - 01:38 PM

Read it and weep. (or if you're Lee party on)

http://www.newscient...p?id=ns99993566

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#2 of 59 OFFLINE   Rachael B

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Posted March 31 2003 - 01:55 PM

They may get it right eventually. I favour SACD but I'd like to see a better DVD-A+ since I would buy some of them.
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#3 of 59 OFFLINE   Rob M.

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Posted March 31 2003 - 02:26 PM

Dead? Did you miss this?

Quote:
Panasonic spokesman Peter Weber acknowledges the problems shown up by the tests. But he told New Scientist: "It is premature to say that plans for a hybrid are dead. Work is continuing on other solutions."


Goes on to day they are working on a double-sided disc, but there are issues with the thickness. Still, I hardly think this means hybrid DVD-A is "dead."
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#4 of 59 OFFLINE   Justin Lane

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Posted March 31 2003 - 02:29 PM

Thread header is a bit deceptive. Single sided Hybrid is dead. I figured that it was a dead end all along anyway due to player incompatibilities. The dual sided Hybrid is still in the pipeline and should be out come June. I am actually more in favor of the dual sided Hybrid as it provides the greatest compatibility of any format. By having a dedicated CD side you do away with the problems found with SACD Hybrids on some players. It also leaves more room for information, as the DVD side could potentially be dual layer, meaning added extra feature.

The dual sided DVD-A would be the ultimate Audio format. Hi-res Stereo, Hi-res Surround, low-res DD or DTS, Redbook CD, videos, lyrics, interviews and any other goodies all on one disc. This could be a medium that gets people excited about buying music again.

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#5 of 59 OFFLINE   Lee Scoggins

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Posted March 31 2003 - 02:56 PM

Quote:
Hi-res Stereo, Hi-res Surround, low-res DD or DTS, Redbook CD, videos, lyrics, interviews and any other goodies all on one disc.


I'm not sure even a flipper could do all that - certainly not if you want 24/192 on all 5 channels.

This will likely become a reality when BluRay hits...

This does seem to suggest that hybrid capability will be in Super Audio's advantage for another year or so...

I wonder if this will push back Dr. Waldrep's plans for summer releases. Mark, any views on this? What have you production people said?

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#6 of 59 OFFLINE   Seth_L

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Posted March 31 2003 - 03:01 PM

The hybrid dual layer solution doesn't work and there's thickness issues with the other method. That makes it dead for now. Maybe they'll come up with a way to resurrect it, but for now it's dead.

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#7 of 59 OFFLINE   Seth_L

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Posted March 31 2003 - 03:04 PM

Quote:
Thread header is a bit deceptive. Single sided Hybrid is dead.
I only consider a single sided disc a "hybrid". A dual sided disc would be a "flipper", not a hybrid IMHO.

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#8 of 59 OFFLINE   LanceJ

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Posted March 31 2003 - 03:06 PM

I never wanted that dual-layer disc anyway--too many chances it wouldn't work in all types of players. The last thing I would want to see on a dvd-audio package is a disclaimer including the words "AS IS" like a recent high visibility hi-res release has. Posted Image

Quote:
...........meaning the double-sided disc may be too thick to fit in some players.

"May be"? Well, too uncertain yet to get depressed about all this yet.

The CD layer would be a nice bonus, but I am buying a dvd-audio really for its hi-res/surround capability.

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#9 of 59 OFFLINE   John Kotches

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Posted March 31 2003 - 03:39 PM

I've known for a while that the hybrid DVD-A disc ala SACD was not a viable option from industry sources on both the hardware and software side.

Flippers could well be further along than anyone connected to the article realizes. Conspicuously absent are comments from labels that press DVD-A titles.

Lee,

You have made a huge leap in culling from the article this statement:
Quote:
This does seem to suggest that hybrid capability will be in Super Audio's advantage for another year or so...

There is no indication of a timeline and I believe you are quite a bit off base. I say flipper DVD-As will be out within 6 months from 4/1/03.

Since you're sitting back enjoying a beer, I'll offer a 6pack of beer of your choice if a hybrid DVD-A isn't released to market by 10/1/03.

If I'm right, you can do the same.

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#10 of 59 OFFLINE   John Kotches

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Posted March 31 2003 - 03:41 PM

Lee,

You can't run more than 2 channels at 24/192K on DVD-Audio now, how would this capability suddenly appear without a higher storage and available bandwidth media?

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#11 of 59 OFFLINE   KeithH

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Posted March 31 2003 - 04:42 PM

John,

You beat me to the punch...


Lee said:

Quote:
I'm not sure even a flipper could do all that - certainly not if you want 24/192 on all 5 channels.


As John indicated, MLP only allows up to 24/96 resolution in surround sound. 24/192 is reserved for stereo.
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#12 of 59 OFFLINE   John Kotches

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Posted April 01 2003 - 01:08 AM

Keith,

This statement is incorrect:

Quote:
MLP only allows up to 24/96 resolution in surround sound. 24/192 is reserved for stereo.

The MLP algorithm is a generic compression algorithm for PCM data. In its current incarnation, it can support up to 64 channels of data, at up to 24bit/192kHz. It's DVD-Audio that has the 96K limit for surround, due to the DVD medium's bandwidth limitations.

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#13 of 59 OFFLINE   Lee Scoggins

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Posted April 01 2003 - 01:11 AM

Quote:
You can't run more than 2 channels at 24/192K on DVD-Audio now, how would this capability suddenly appear without a higher storage and available bandwidth media?


John and Keith,

Please read my reply carefully - I know that that 24/192 would not work presently which is why I said all these items (MC music, video, etc.) would not likely be stored until a high density format like BluRay or the like comes along. Since I feel that 24/192 is close to DSD, I don't believe 24/96 in surround is as good as DSD which offers the high resolution on all surround channels. I honestly believe this is a real problem with DVDA. Please note that I said:

Quote:
I'm not sure even a flipper could do all that - certainly not if you want 24/192 on all 5 channels.


So my statement is correct. Posted Image

John,

If you have information that contradicts this article, please post it so we have a different opinion from another source. If you can reach Mark Waldrep, then let us know if his plans are still moving forward. Based on this story, if correct, there are real production problems. Perhaps they can work through these - perhaps not. I estimated a year based on my work in the business and seeing how slow the industry can be at agreeing on things - look at the time delay in just getting working groups to agree to a common standard.

How does it work if the thickness exceeds the redbook CD spec?

Will Sony or Philips or the industry give them the equivalent of a variance or will it have to be something other than CD?

If something other than CD, then that poses a problem in and of itself.

I think we have to agree that Super Audio will gain further ground until this issue is worked out.
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#14 of 59 OFFLINE   Iain Lambert

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Posted April 01 2003 - 03:11 AM

You know, I could have sworn that Blair Witch 2 shipped in the US as a dual-sided disc with the film on one side and the soundtrack in Redbook on the other. If that was allowed, why wouldn't replacing the VOB data on the DVD side with DVDA data?

Or was it that the disc was indeed too thick, and they got complaints about it?
mmm, thats odd.

#15 of 59 OFFLINE   John Kotches

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Posted April 01 2003 - 03:17 AM

Lee,

In your earlier post, you were not clear that you were referring to BluRay. Since both Keith and I raised the same question at different times, this isn't a case one of us misinterpreting. Thank you for the clarification.

I sent a note out to Mark, but have no idea if/when he'll have an opportunity to reply. Heck, I don't even know where in the world he is Posted Image

I do know the holdup for flipper style was thickness or they would be out already. The last I heard from a different industry source, the latest samples were within tolerance for both the CD and DVD specifications.

Regards,



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#16 of 59 OFFLINE   John Kotches

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Posted April 01 2003 - 03:19 AM

Iain,

I haven't touched the disc you're referring to, I might have to pick it up just for that tidbit of info you passed along.

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#17 of 59 OFFLINE   Michael St. Clair

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Posted April 01 2003 - 03:29 AM

From Usenet, quoting Artisan press release in March 2001:

Quote:
Artisan will release Book of Shadows: Blair Witch 2 as a combination DVD/CD--the first of its kind--on March 13, according to The Hollywood Reporter. The new patented technology will allow consumers to view the film, extra material and DVD-ROM extras on one side, then flip the disc and use it to play the film's soundtrack on the other side, the trade paper reported.

The CD side will be playable in portable and auto CD players as well. The CD will include The Reckoning by Godhead and a live version of the song from the Blair Witch Webfest, among other songs from the film, the trade paper reported.

The DVD-ROM will also include an "Easter egg," The Secret of Esrever, which will allow computer users to play the sequence backward to reveal clues to discovering ghost-like images hidden within the feature film.

I had a freebie magazine disc years ago that was DVD-ROM on one side, CD-ROM on the other. I don't think I still have it. Of course it may have had compatibility issues.

#18 of 59 OFFLINE   John Kotches

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Posted April 01 2003 - 03:44 AM

Michael,

If one has no interest in Blair Witch II, then it would have been easy to miss this Posted Image

Regards,
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#19 of 59 OFFLINE   terry deto

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Posted April 01 2003 - 04:00 AM

offering to make two sided disk's here

http://www.atozmusic.com/dvd.html

dvd-a included as an option

#20 of 59 OFFLINE   Lee Scoggins

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Posted April 01 2003 - 04:33 AM

Quote:
In your earlier post, you were not clear that you were referring to BluRay. Since both Keith and I raised the same question at different times, this isn't a case one of us misinterpreting. Thank you for the clarification.


No problem. Posted Image

It just seemed clear that I was referring to the ability of current DVD capacity to include space for all the items. I think higher density will be out in a few years if not sooner and solve all of this. I just wonder about the timing versus the Super Audio push.

It seems to me that there may be a thickness issue with Bliar Witch 2 (hated the ovious original so I never saw the sequel), based on the comments from the article unless Artisan uses a different process.

Michael, DVD-ROM material can be lower density in nature so that may be a slightly different situation.
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