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The Eternal Angelriffic Thread (Merged)


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#21 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted April 15 2002 - 10:51 AM

Yeah, the trip to Pylea was great fun - not only did we get Lorne backstory, and a great antidote to the depressing antics on "Buffy", but we got Fred out of it!
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#22 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted April 16 2002 - 03:32 AM

I don't think Angel really wanted to kill Wesley, but I don't think he was faking it, either. He's angry, and he justifiably feels betrayed - how much better off would Wesley be if he'd just reported what he'd found, rather than trying to handle it himself? It struck me that Angel wasn't planning that until he entered the room, but then his anger got hold of him.

Could he have made a more efficient try? Yeah, but he's still basically human - subconsciously, he wanted to get stopped. Because as much as Angel wouldn't shed many tears over Wesley's death, he knew he'd probably need the guy's help - not to mention Cordy's, Gunn's and Fred's - before all this was done.

Just a couple nit-picky things - apparently the all-knowing hamburger wasn't as all-knowing as one might have hoped, giving Wes the same false information. Also, Sah-ja seems a lot less interesting now that he's been given corporeal form. Maybe it's just me, but a time-traveling mastermind recruiting allies to do his dirty work throughout history seems like a much cooler villain than a generically tough sociopath (because, let's face it, that urn's gonna hold him about as long as the orb held John Bly).

Also, I was sort of confused by something in the White Room - the little girl seems to refer to Sah-ja as "them" as opposed to "him". Foreshadowing or me being thick?
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#23 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted April 16 2002 - 08:23 AM

I think part of it was that it was Connor's blood, specifically - note that Angel says Connor started to smell like food, not the whole group.

I'm inclined to throw out that line of Cordelia's, since they've stated much more clearly that Angel tries to avoid human blood like a sober alcoholic avoids booze - from his line to Doyle in "City Of" about having had a craving since feeding on Buffy in "Graduation Day" or how he practically slavered when Harmony was going on about how yummy it was.

Quote:
A quick nit-picky question, tho': I was under the impression that Sah-ja and his kind could be contained in jars because he/they are ethereal. So, how did he get sucked into one when he was solid? I have only watched the episode once, so perhaps I missed the detail that explains this.

Bugged me, too, but I don't recall them specifically saying those urns could only contain ethereal whatever-Sahjan-ises. Call it lazy until they use that to explain why he was able to bust out ("well, yeah, the urn'll hold a noncorporeal whatever-Sahjan-is..."). I wonder how Holtz knew to get one when it took Angel a hard-won trip to the Exposition Room to find out.
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#24 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted April 17 2002 - 03:30 AM

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If he's immaterial, how did he perform the ritual to free Holtz?

Hell, how does he speak? I mean, you've gotta be somewhat solid for your larynx to do all those nifty thing with airflow that result in comprehensible words. Posted Image

(And don't even get my started on invisibility. Just don't. Posted Image)
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#25 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted April 17 2002 - 04:22 AM

That's actually something "Angel" does pretty well, though - when they need to drop a whole bunch of exposition on you, they tend to create nifty little scenes that make you forget that you're in the middle of an information dump. Many shows don't do it so well - "Babylon 5", for instance, needed a lot of them, and they often dragged the show to a standstill.
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Transplanted Life: Sci-fi soap opera about a man placed in a new body, updated two or three times a week.
Trading Post Inn - Another gender-bending soap, with different collaborators writing different points of view.

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#26 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted April 24 2002 - 12:01 AM

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Since UPN will probably lose Buffy after Season 7, I will not be suprised if WB dumps Angel at any point that they won't be happy to take it

First, diagram that sentence, Jeff. It isn't well constructed at all.

Second, I don't know how true that would be. If I were at UPN, I'd be somewhat wary about taking on more cast-offs. "The Hughleys" seems to be doing all right, but "Roswell" is history, "Wolf Lake" certainly isn't getting renewed, and "Buffy", while probably an improvement on what UPN had in the timeslot last year, is very expensive (for a second-tier network like UPN) and has seen its ratings drop pretty strikingly.

But, then again, this is UPN we're talking about. That picking "Angel" up in the event of WB cancelling it might not be the brightest of ideas certainly doesn't mean it's out of the question.
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#27 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted April 29 2002 - 11:54 PM

Will... I think you're attributing malice to a simple mistake. There was obviously a technical snag or two at the end of "Angel" last night, but it's kind of silly to presume it was deliberate on WLVI's part.

Come on... Deep breaths, don't let something this small raise your blood pressure.
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#28 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted April 30 2002 - 04:01 AM

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A decent episode. Wesley seems to be taking things a bit hard, but he had some good points about his friends. Why is everyone siding with Angel and forgetting Wes needs friends?

Well, kidnapping a baby is a pretty heinous thing to do, and he hurt Lorne fairly badly while doing it. Arguably even worse, once he had translated the prophecy, he didn't tell Angel, or Fred, or Gunn, or Cordelia, or even try to get Giles or some other trustworthy contact on the phone to get confirmation. Instead, he went to Holtz. How are they supposed to react? Gunn was Wesley's best friend, but Wes opted to trust a vengence-crazed mystery man over him.

Sure, he was feeling alienated, but the bottom line is, they don't feel they can trust him. And can you really blame them?
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#29 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted April 30 2002 - 04:59 AM

Hey, WLVI is in the phone book, and www.wlvi.com will get you to their website. If you want to go over their heads, try Tribune Media Corp. in Chicago.
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#30 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted April 30 2002 - 06:34 AM

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Does anyone buy Fred's distaste for doing the mystical research?

I don't know as it's "distaste" as much as Fred understanding better than the others that advanced knowledge is very specialized. You need information on something scientific, especially in the area of physics, and Fred's your girl. However, she's going to be just as lost as anyone else once she leaves her field of expertise - she doesn't know the terminology, or which reference works are most reliable.

That's actually fairly "realistic" - Fred's a mere genius (with mechanical aptitude), not a pan-disciplinary prodigy like Willow. Posted Image Heck, her skill with physics and mechanics may actually be a handicap for her in terms of dealing with the mystical ("You're violating the law of conservation of mass when you change shapes. Stop it.").
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#31 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted April 30 2002 - 04:06 PM

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Angel and Cordy hooking up is a STUPID idea.

And, you know, Cordy may realize this. Maybe not consciously, but I've sort of gotten the occasional vibe that she pushes Angel away because of it.

Quote:
After all, what is the difference between Holtz holding a grudge against Angel for killing his child and Angel holding a grudge against Wes for kidnapping Connor?

Well, there's the whole soul thing. The only reason Angel isn't dust right now is that it's accepted as a given that "Angel", despite sharing memories, a physical form, and some personality traits, is a distinct individual from "Angelus".
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#32 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted May 07 2002 - 04:43 AM

Probably. Still, I think they're overplaying the "someone shows up in the last minute" bit. When the camera pulled back to show Darla in the box, well, that was huge. When Drucilla showed up, yeah, that was a pretty big deal. When Connor/Steven appeared, it was kind of neat, even if it had been undercut by all the advertising. Holtz... Well, gee, I think I'm kind of numb to this.
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#33 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted May 13 2002 - 09:14 AM

FRAY = Comic book with vampires in the future that comes out every quarter or so

FIREFLY = TV show with spaceships in the future and the most expensive pilot ever

That was me speculating, anyway. Who knows what Fox will actually wind up doing? It seems like they completely blow up their schedule every three or four years, and with the ends of "The X-Files" and "Ally McBeal" coming, another bloodletting is due.

We'll find out about WB tomorrow. I have a terrible feeling that Sunday 9pm is going to wind up with "Alias", "Angel", "Law & Order Criminal Intent" and either "24" or "Firefly" all on at the same time.
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#34 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted May 13 2002 - 10:22 AM

There's a certain amount of logic to it - Sunday night is the one when most people spend time watching TV, and Thursday is prime space for advertising weekend activities/shopping. Generally, the networks avoid being completely suicidal in terms of going for the same audience (sure, there was that silly game of chicken when "ER" and "Chicago Hope" premiered, and if anybody's got an explanation for UPN scheduling "Roswell" against "Smallville", I'd like to hear it), but certain nights are going to be more valuable than others. The way it is in the free market.

So a lot of sci-fi gets scheduled for Friday, because us dorks don't have a date and will be at home, and a lot of the big guns come out on Sunday. It's just my fault for liking to much TV - I'd probably be OK with the pigpile if I didn't need to see "Law & Order".

I figure "Angel" will move (they've got another "designed to complement '7th Heaven'" lamb to lead to the slaughter), and Sunday seems slightly more logical than, say, Wednesday or Thursday.
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Trading Post Inn - Another gender-bending soap, with different collaborators writing different points of view.

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#35 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted May 14 2002 - 05:53 AM

Well, "Angel" has committed to Sunday 9pm first, so "Firefly" would be moved against "Angel". I don't think Fox will do that, though - aside from there being no need to poison their relationship with Whedon, it doesn't really make sense for two networks to program for the same niche audience at the same time - especially if the parent company of one owns both properties.

I wonder if "Angel" being on Sunday means UPN will relax the no-crossovers rule, though, since they don't program on Sunday (I hope not).
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Trading Post Inn - Another gender-bending soap, with different collaborators writing different points of view.

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#36 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted May 21 2002 - 12:12 AM

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I don't see why all you people hated this ep so much. I agree it's not a whiz bang Season 2 finale, but come on guys! So much has been setup for next year it'll take 13 eps just to recover!

Well, see, there you're answering your own question. It's all set-up without resolution, and it's stuff that will be undone in relatively short order come October. Not really a satisfying episode of television. I'm not saying it's "The Gift" redux or anything, but it seems kind of disingenuous to call it a "finale" of any sort.

Besides, I don't think many people really hated it, but I can easily see (and agree with) people finding it unsatisfying.

Kind of amusing to see another round of "Angel vs. cell phones", though, even if it does remind me that they started this gag in September, in the first issue of a 4-part comic series, part 4 of which still hasn't come out.

Quote:
One thing I have to ask - the B:TVS and Angel are in the same universe, right?

More or less. There have been crossover episodes (now thankfully verboten) and references between the shows, and they haven't flat-out contradicted each other, but they often seem to be working based off different assumptions.
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Transplanted Life: Sci-fi soap opera about a man placed in a new body, updated two or three times a week.
Trading Post Inn - Another gender-bending soap, with different collaborators writing different points of view.

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#37 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted May 21 2002 - 05:22 AM

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now I feel it has a very Empire Strikes Back feel to it, which is to say, it has an ending, just a very tragic one. Of course, if next season picks-up “five minutes later” then I’m going back to thinking it was just a cliffhanger episode.

It's sort of like "The Gift" on "Buffy" - it serves as an ending to the story, and if you stopped watching, it would feel somewhat complete... but you know it's going to be undone in October.

I don't figure they'll do "five minutes later"... Time will probably pass in real-time.

Of course, you know what might be fun... "Fifty years later". Cordy returns without having aged a day, is able to sense where Angel is, and they find Wesley running Wolfram and Hart. Sure, it'd only last an episode or two before they find some means to travel back in time (Fred's life's work?) to "six months later", but wouldn't it be a heck of a way to start the new season off with a bang?
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Transplanted Life: Sci-fi soap opera about a man placed in a new body, updated two or three times a week.
Trading Post Inn - Another gender-bending soap, with different collaborators writing different points of view.

"What? Since when was this an energy...

#38 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted May 22 2002 - 02:05 AM

Derek:

Ideas are easy. Really easy. The first part of writing is throwing out all of the bad ones so that you wind up looking like you've got something to work with.

Everything else, though, is hard. I've tried to write a screenplay; it just winds up being me staring at Word for hours on end, maybe getting an outline built. Then there's the absolute agony of putting one word after another. What a lot of people don't understand is that writing is hard work.

Then there's the whole "I'm a Boston-based database developer with no contacts in Hollywood (or New York, or...) who doesn't want to uproot himself and quit his job in order to give writing the full-time attention necessary if I wanted to do this professionally" thing. Someday, I'll actually finish a script, find an agent, and hope for the best, and maybe that'll lead to my being able to bolt the dot-com world for good, but for right now, I'm sort of satisfied with just throwing out ideas.
Jay's Movie Blog - A movie-viewing diary.
Transplanted Life: Sci-fi soap opera about a man placed in a new body, updated two or three times a week.
Trading Post Inn - Another gender-bending soap, with different collaborators writing different points of view.

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#39 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted May 22 2002 - 07:42 AM

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But he should not be quite so cavalier about the easiness of ideas -- lots of people don't have any and having good ones is indeed a gift.

Fair enough. The important thing is, "having ideas" and "writing" are really two seperate processes. Sometimes one can lead to another, but my point was that being able to come up with a neat idea means very little toward being able to tell a story.

Anyway, having ideas has always been fairly easy for me, especially in a case like this, where I'm just extrapolating possible continuations to an existing story. Certainly, there are folks who find it to be much more difficult than the stringing-words-together part (do a thread search on "Enterprise", "Brannon Braga", and "does nothing but rehash old TNG scripts").

Quote:
People cannot sell spec scripts to shows directly. The only way to sell a script to anything is through an agent. And as far as I know few scripts for shows are bought on the free lance market.

Right; the "Star Trek" shows were rare examples of shows that had that sort of open door policy. They read everything, although only a very few got produced - TNG's "Tin Man" is the only one that leaps to mind, although Robert Wolfe once mentioned that DS9 rejected one script but paid the writer $50k for the phrase "self-replicating mines".
Jay's Movie Blog - A movie-viewing diary.
Transplanted Life: Sci-fi soap opera about a man placed in a new body, updated two or three times a week.
Trading Post Inn - Another gender-bending soap, with different collaborators writing different points of view.

"What? Since when was this an energy...

#40 of 3776 OFFLINE   Jason Seaver

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Posted May 24 2002 - 02:56 AM

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Actually Angel did "lose" his soul for a little while back in Season 1 when Kate slipped something in his drink that somehow simulated true happiness...

It wasn't Kate; it was an actress played by Tamara Gorski (one of those actresses who is all over the place for a couple of years and then up and disappears).

Quote:
being able to come up with a neat idea means very little toward being able to tell a story.


I think you've shown a more than adequate knowledge of how a "story" should be structred, Jason.

Knowing and doing are two different things, especially on a deadline.

Besides, you haven't read my attempts at dialogue. Wiseasses nationwide would be begging for George Lucas rewrites. Posted Image

Quote:
However, I think that should he connect with the right premise and characters that he would be able to turn out several excellent ideas.

I've only got one "original" idea now that I'd really be interested in pursuing as a series, though, and though I'm sure Jack Briggs would love it, I'm not sure the world needs Yet Another Damn Itinerant Spaceship Show, even though I'm pretty sure nobody's done one where "299,792,458 m/s isn't just a good idea; it's the law" for some time. And it'd be expensive - lots of Star Wars-style digital backlots and tons of low-gravity wire-fu.

Well, that and a really silly sitcom idea that even I think is too thin to get much past 13 episodes.

(Yeah, we're off-topic, but it's re-run season)
Jay's Movie Blog - A movie-viewing diary.
Transplanted Life: Sci-fi soap opera about a man placed in a new body, updated two or three times a week.
Trading Post Inn - Another gender-bending soap, with different collaborators writing different points of view.

"What? Since when was this an energy...


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