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Yamaha going very low end?


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#61 of 76 Mike Up

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Posted March 21 2003 - 12:49 PM

Matthew D,

Quote:
I'll first set all the speakers to "large" and LFE/Bass to "sub", and try every mode. The subwoofer should turn on ONLY if there is an LFE channel. Correct?

That's right.

Quote:
Then I'll set my center and rears to "small" but leave the mains set to "large". The sub should turn on for every mode where there is a signal sent to the center and/or rears. Correct?


Yeh, plus LFE content for DD and DTS.

With matrixed modes as DPL and NEO, the main bass should be in the center channel. The reason is that bass is normally mono. Matrix modes put all mono information into the center channel obviously. So when that center channel speaker is set to small, it's bass should be directed to the subwoofer when the LFE/Bass Out option is set to "sub" or "both". If that option is set to "main", the bass from channels that are selected as small, should be directed to the main L/R speakers along with the LFE channel for DD and DTS signals.

I would also make sure that the bass is getting directed correctly when not using a sub, but the main speakers to produce all bass. All bass that's in channels where the speakers are selected as small, should be directed away from those channels, to the main speakers. The main speakers in effect, acts as the subwoofer when bass signals are concerned.

I really doubt you'll have problems. With both BM problems I experienced, it was an 'in your face' loss of bass. Something that was very APPARENT. With the RX-V596, the sub output just didn't work at all in DPL. This was noticeable with all speakers set to small. Using full range speakers with no sub, this flaw most likely would had gone unknown(until a sub was finally used). With the RX-V2300 in 'all channel stereo', the bass was noticeably VERY weak with channels all set to small. Obviously, the bass should had been stronger than when the speakers were set to Large, since my speakers only go down to 50Hz.

A note, Denons DSPs(not widescreen, Dts modes, & Dolby modes) don't have bass in the center or effect channels. Denon's 5/7 channel mode only has bass information in the main front speakers. The center and rear surrounds don't have any bass information in them. I can only assume Denon did this on purpose since these signals are the same, the bass reflections would had caused cancellations since the front speakers basically face at the front speakers. Since their drivers would move in opposition to each other, facing the other, the frequencies would essentially cancel each other if all speakers were setup for the "large" option. Obviously, using "ONE" sub would put this affect to a none issue, but many people like to run their speakers full range for music and the cancellations would cause problems.

Since I had BM problems with the 2300, I don't know if they did the same.

Quote:
Finally, I'll set the mains to "small" also. Now the sub should always turn on, even in 2 channel stereo. Correct?


Yep.Posted Image

Good luck, you shouldn't have any problems(hopingPosted Image ). I just have a knack for finding manufacturers' problem products.Posted Image

#62 of 76 Mike Up

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Posted March 21 2003 - 05:40 PM

Matthew D,

Quote:
If I have my mains as "large", center and rears as "small" and the LFE/Bass Out set to "main" (therefore turning the sub off), how will I really know if the rear and center bass is being redirected to the mains?


With DPL and other surround modes based off of 2 channel stereo, the bass should be just as strong as it was in stereo. Since in DPL, the bass is normally matrixed to the center channel, if that bass isn't steered to the main speakers, the bass will be very weak if not gone completely. There will be some bass in the main channels as there is often some bass information that is stereo in nature or from slight phase differences in the left and right bass signals. That main channel bass will be very weak in nature, as the predominant bass should be placed in the center channel(but when that center channel is selected as small, that bass gets steered to either the main speakers or the subwoofer).

5.1 sources could be checked by changing the center channel's size selection, and then listening for differences in bass on the speakers that you're having that bass sent to, either your mains or your subwoofer. The same could be done with the surround speakers. In both instances, you may need to try different 5.1/6.1 soundtracks to find which gives the most bass in those channels, to make differences easier heard.

Hope that helps.Posted Image

Have a good one.

#63 of 76 StephenL

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Posted March 22 2003 - 04:56 AM

Mike Up said:
Quote:
With both BM problems I experienced, it was an 'in your face' loss of bass. Something that was very APPARENT. With the RX-V596, the sub output just didn't work at all in DPL.

At last someone has confirmed the bass management problem with my HTR-5250 (aka RX-V596). I bought this to replace my RX-V595, which didn't have DTS and S-Video switching. I have some subwoofer output with DPL, but it's very weak. The bass management problem is also apparent with some of the DSPs, especially Disco. I had no bass management problems with the RX-V595. I contacted Yamaha and even sent the HTR-5250 to them in California to be tested. They insisted that it's working to factory specifications.

I've read reports in Sound & Vision about bass management problems in other receivers, and that THX certified receivers are more likely to have bass management that works properly. So I bought an Onkyo TX-DS898. It had the Dolby Digital dropout problem, but it was repaired under warranty.
"It's most disappointing. I shall have to go all-out on some modifications."

#64 of 76 Phil*K

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Posted March 22 2003 - 05:21 AM

Steve,

No offense, but I doubt that the THX logo had anything to do with it, considering the receivers and other equipment that have that logo. More likely is the cost of your Onkyo, for which you could have bought three 5250s. Just food for thought.

Phil

#65 of 76 StephenL

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Posted March 22 2003 - 05:58 AM

THX has a lot to do with it. THX has strict standards for bass management and other performance. It is certainly possible to find receivers (even low priced receivers) without THX certification that have proper bass management, but I think that independent testing is worthwhile. The bass management problems of the RX-V596/HTR-5250 would have been found and corrected if Yamaha had sought THX certification.

Sound & Vision magazine: THX Certified
http://www.soundandv....&page_number=1

Sound & Vision magazine: Behind The Numbers: Digital Sound Receivers
(see "Bass Management" beginning on page 3)
http://www.soundandv....&page_number=1

AVS Forum thread: Manufactures,Tell us about your THX Certification process
http://www.avsforum.....hreadid=122172
"It's most disappointing. I shall have to go all-out on some modifications."

#66 of 76 Phil*K

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Posted March 22 2003 - 06:11 AM

Other than start a THX war that has been discussed on many occations. I suggest that you go over to the speaker forum and read the thread "the value of the THX rating". You should be able to find it over the last couple of days. I would also ingnor any magazine's opinion concidering the amount of money THX has poored into advertising.

Phil

#67 of 76 Mike Up

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Posted March 22 2003 - 06:47 AM

StephenL,

Quote:
At last someone has confirmed the bass management problem with my HTR-5250 (aka RX-V596).

Maybe, maybe not. The RX-V596 that I setup was " DEFECTIVE ". The bass management was not a design bug or even designed to work like that.

We exchanged the DEFECTIVE RX-V596 and got a new RX-V596. The new RX-V596 was great, it had no bass management problems .

Perhaps yours was defective, because the RX-V596 works correctly when it's not defective. You should had exchanged it for a working RX-V596.

BTW, I had an Onkyo TX-DS747, it had a HUGE bass management design flaw. With speakers selected as small, the BM would only redirect bass to the powered subwoofer output. It would not redirect that bass to the main speakers. Since at that time, I had tower speakers with large woofers that were capable of going to 40Hz strongly, I didn't have a subwoofer or desire a subwoofer. I simply could not use the Onkyo TX-DS747 in my system since that receiver "REQUIRED" a subwoofer to produce any bass information in the surround modes.

Perhaps that Onkyo was defective, but I highly doubt that as I seen many complaints of the same problem for that unit on the forums at that time. Unfortunately, this was a 1st generation DD receiver. At that time, many receivers had the same flaw, in that the bass from small speakers could not be redirected to the main channel speakers but only to the dedicated subwoofer output. I went with a Yamaha RX-V793 which did the bass management correctly and was also a first generation Dolby Digital receiver. In later years after us Guinea pigs bitched and moaned about improper bass management, did the manufacturers start to implement correct bass management in Dolby Digital receivers.

Quote:
I contacted Yamaha and even sent the HTR-5250 to them in California to be tested. They insisted that it's working to factory specifications.


Unfortunately, that's what I was told about the RX-V596 we had. Since I knew that they didn't have a clue, I exchanged it for another and it worked flawlessly .

Quote:
THX certified receivers are more likely to have bass management that works properly

Not so! Many times THX's 80Hz crossover is either to high or to low and doesn't match well with standard speakers. THX circuits are designed to work with THX SPEAKERS. If a satellite speaker has a roll-off at 100Hz, the THX 80Hz crossover point will degrade the sound and leave a hole in the bass between 80 - 100Hz. With larger speakers, a lower crossover point can benefit the larger speakers. THX circuits, again, were only designed to work with THX speakers. THX speakers are all designed to have a frequency roll-off at 80Hz, no less, no more. Many manufacturers have seen the problems with THX bass management and have redesigned the crossover points to be more flexible. Now units have 40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, and 120Hz crossover points. As far as THX processing goes, it distorts the signal from the original sound. THX is a DSP, just as DSPs that are implemented from Yamaha and SOny. THX is a different DSP but a DSP, never the less that CHANGES the original signals.

Many purists who want unadulterated sound, don't use THX or other DSPs. I am one of them.

Quote:
It had the Dolby Digital dropout problem, but it was repaired under warranty.


Glad to hear you had that done. Hopefully without the hassles from Onkyo that others had.Posted Image

Have a good one.

#68 of 76 StephenL

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Posted March 22 2003 - 08:17 AM

Mike, thanks for the information on the Yamaha RX-V596. Unfortunately I discovered the problem after it was too late to return the receiver. I'd like to know how to repair it.

When I said that THX certified receivers are more likely to have bass management that works properly I wasn't talking about adjustable crossovers, but your point is important and it's addressed in the Sound & Vision article and several of my posts:
http://www.hometheat....81#post1169381

Regardless of the crossover frequency, bass management should work consistently with all sources including Dolby Digital, DTS, PCM and analog. Some receivers have problems with this. "If a bass-management system has to be used at all — and it must be with most subwoofer/satellite setups — then it should operate the same way with all inputs, analog or digital, stereo or multichannel, in order to avoid changes in bass balance when you change the program source."
http://www.soundandv....&page_number=1

Also note the potential problems of a crossover that's too low, even if the speakers have adequate low frequency response:
http://www.hometheat....rs-9-2002.html
Quote:
As far as THX processing goes, it distorts the signal from the original sound. THX is a DSP, just as DSPs that are implemented from Yamaha and SOny. THX is a different DSP but a DSP, never the less that CHANGES the original signals.

Your room acoustics can also change the original sound. THX processing is designed to correct that, but you can turn it off if you don't want it.
http://www.thx.com/m.../receivers.html
"It's most disappointing. I shall have to go all-out on some modifications."

#69 of 76 Mike Up

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Posted March 22 2003 - 09:07 AM

StephenL,

Quote:
I discovered the problem after it was too late to return the receiver. I'd like to know how to repair it.


I don't know what the electronic cause would be. I would have the unit repaired under warranty at a local repair shop and be present to show the defect you found. Sending a unit in for an undocumented problem, usually isn't going to get fixed. I know from experience. Many techs don't get paid rate for warranty items and don't take extensive time to detect the problem. If it's not a big problem in showing itself obviously, these techs usually won't take the time to find it. Unfortunately, that's the way things are. In my experiences, I had to go to their test bench, and simulate the problem "MYSELF". Only then did they discover that the unit really was defective. If warranty work paid these techs their hourly rate, I can only think they would then take the time to diagnose the problem.

Quote:
Regardless of the crossover frequency, bass management should work consistently with all sources including Dolby Digital, DTS, PCM and analog. Some receivers have problems with this.

Most receivers do, do you personally know receivers that don't? If so, could you help us out and reference the model numbers and makes? Thanks.

S&Vs comments are bit naive many times. The reason most receivers don't have bass management on their 5.1/6.1/7.1 analog multichannel inputs are because the analog signal must maintain it's analog nature. Receivers use "DIGITAL" bass management which means that the analog signals are then converted to Digital, which can then be used in the digital bass management. The idea of DVD-A and SACD is to have a better signal and degrading that signal through ADC(analog to digital conversion)defeats the purpose and degrades the high resolution signal. Since S&V's articles usually target novices, they are basic and don't get to the technicalities of why things, are designed as they are. S&V's articles are good to obtain overall knowledge, but definitely something that can't be taken to literal when technology, they don't mention, is the reason for certain designs.

Good links, I thought S&V tested their power at .5% Distortion, I see it was .3% instead. Posted Image

Quote:
Your room acoustics can also change the original sound. THX processing is designed to correct that, but you can turn it off if you don't want it.


THX does the same as other DSPs, in trying to make you room sound like it's not your room. THX is no different and tries to simulate a large, reflective theater as most of Yamaha's DSPs do. In fact, Yamaha has a DSP that simulates the characteristics that THX does, it's the "enhanced" DSP mode.



I see you reference a lot of other's opinions and research in making your points. Nothing wrong with that. I do a lot of my own tests with different components to determine how they work, and what's best. S&V's articles are nice but are so basic, they're common knowledge to the vintage home theater hobbyist.

THX's comments are, well, THX's comments which are biased toward their products. Yamaha has their own competing technology here. As you can tell, I don't particularly care for THX or their DSP. If their THX license fee wasn't passed onto the customer, I wouldn't care less. To keep a product at a price point/class, if there is a THX license fee, then that cost must be cut somewhere on the receiver design, to balance the product expense to be at the determined price point. I've also seen THX products test pretty bad, and it's frustrating when people buy these products for the supposed quality, when they could had gotten better from a none THX product, at a cheaper price to boot!

Have a good one and nice references.Posted Image

#70 of 76 Robert McClanahan

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Posted March 22 2003 - 04:52 PM

FYI, Yamaha is dumping receivers on the market.They just want their name in your living room.Costs are coming down but so is quality.Even Sony ES is getting cheap.I love Yamaha gear,its just that I wonder who is making these stupid decisions at Yamaha.Posted Image

#71 of 76 Mark All

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Posted March 22 2003 - 05:09 PM

Quote:
I wonder who is making these stupid decisions at Yamaha


I agree that Yamaha is slipping into the territory of using its brand name unwisely. Yamaha used to make very good separate components, especially amplifiers, and I have been surprised to see the company put their brand on such cheap home theater receivers. Still, that's where the money is now. At the lower end of the market, I think other brands probably offer more value at the same price level. In the past, I always had the image of Yamaha being a notch above companies like Sony and Pioneer. Yamaha's products seem to be only on par with them now. I'd like to see Yamaha focus more attention on higher end receivers, amplifiers and pre/pros once again.
Audio, ergo sum.

#72 of 76 MatthewJ S

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Posted March 23 2003 - 06:21 AM

FYI, Yamaha is dumping receivers on the market.They just want their name in your living room.Costs are coming down but so is quality.Even Sony ES is getting cheap.I love Yamaha gear,its just that I wonder who is making these stupid decisions at Yamaha.
////////////////////////////end quote////////////
WOW!...that is what I've been saying abiut DENON for the last couple of model years!...everyone is entitled to their own opinion...
I sell Yamahas and use them on MANY of my custom install jobs because I ALMOST NEVER have any kind of problems with them...keep in mind that these are all RXV ,not HTR SERIES(which get much less QC), AND most are 1300 and aboves (a few 630/730's)....
that receiver sounds great demo'd through my computer speakers!

I bought the best ones, my buddy would never steer me wrong .He's not trying to make a commission off me and Cambridge Sound's factory direct pricing means that I got a great deal!

It must be a good deal all the people on the net...

#73 of 76 JeremyFr

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Posted March 24 2003 - 09:35 AM

Ok I've got the 730 and am very happy with it and can guarantee it will pass by most recievers in its price range. I really have no respect for S&V testing especially since they dont publish what methods they use or anything on the testing circumstances. Also the 730 is no where listed on that site published. I've been to that page before and if you'll notice almost everything on it is quite old in review dates. 5 years in some cases. At anyrate like I said I'm very happy with my 730 and would put it up against just about nething in the same price range.
For those of you who know your job is to teach.
For those of you who dont know your job is to learn.

#74 of 76 StephenL

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Posted March 24 2003 - 04:31 PM

Mike, the Yamaha HTR-5250 is the only receiver with bass management problems that I've had personal experience with. Here are a few from Sound & Vision magazine test reports:

July/August 2002. Panasonic SA-HE100: Crossover inoperative in stereo; bass level reduction in DPL II and Neo:6.

May 2002. Sherwood Newcastle R-963: Manufacturer claims bass management for multichannel analog input, but Sound & Vision found that bass below 80 Hz is not redirected to subwoofer.

November 2000. Philips FR975: Loss of bass management with stereo analog input. JVC RX-8000V: Loss of bass management with stereo digital and analog input. Of the three receivers tested in this issue, only the Onkyo TX-DS575X had correct bass management.

October 2000. Outlaw Audio Model 1050. No bass management on back surround channel. As a result of the review Outlaw corrected the problem on later units.

MatthewJ S said:
I sell Yamahas and use them on MANY of my custom install jobs because I ALMOST NEVER have any kind of problems with them...keep in mind that these are all RXV ,not HTR SERIES(which get much less QC), AND most are 1300 and aboves (a few 630/730's)
What evidence do you have that the HTR series gets much less QC?
http://www.yamaha.co....vers/faq00.htm

JeremyFr said:
I really have no respect for S&V testing especially since they dont publish what methods they use or anything on the testing circumstances.

Sound & Vision does publish their testing methods:
http://www.soundandv....&page_number=1
"It's most disappointing. I shall have to go all-out on some modifications."

#75 of 76 MatthewJ S

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Posted March 25 2003 - 12:49 AM

Yamaha pulls three times the # of rxv units off the line for full QC check than it does on the "concert" series...other than that ,this year, they are identical...
that receiver sounds great demo'd through my computer speakers!

I bought the best ones, my buddy would never steer me wrong .He's not trying to make a commission off me and Cambridge Sound's factory direct pricing means that I got a great deal!

It must be a good deal all the people on the net...

#76 of 76 Robert McClanahan

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Posted March 27 2003 - 04:53 PM

Matt,I too do custom installations and my company sells Yamaha gear.Customers like Yamaha because they are very user friendly.They like the sound but the customers really seem more concerned about ease of use.I am concerned about the current trend by manufacturers to put out these hometheater in a box systems.I have seen alot of these come through our repair shop.


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