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Yamaha going very low end?


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#41 of 76 Evan M.

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Posted March 20 2003 - 09:29 AM

Rob, LOL, I know what you mean. I was posting on this thread the other day and was thinking the same thing as I was typing. (what is the point of this thread?) Personaly the fact that a receiver doesn't make its specs is no real headline news. I don't know of many brands that hit all of their specs. (yes, I know that company's do hit their specs so nobody list them all to me Posted Image) I don't think that if a receiver doesn't hit its wattage though that that will put it "low end" or ahave to "rebuild their rep". i would be more concerned about the older Denons audio drop out problems, the newer up-conversion issue, or H/K center channel hiss and other issues I have heard. These are all bugs that got by the manufactor that should not have in the first place. And I am certainly not saying that these company's rep needs improving, they had a few problems now it is time to move on. They are still awesome companies.

#42 of 76 Mike Up

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Posted March 20 2003 - 12:37 PM

Evan, this very VERY low power issue is not something of insignificance. While many receivers don't make their specs, they come close. This receiver only outputted 50% of it's ratings. The noise is high enough to hear, as Mark pointed out.

This is a huge disappointment when higher performance could be obtained cheaper from less respected brands. This company gets their higher asking prices from respect and reputation. Once that respect and reputation are established, shouldn't be the signal to let QC and performance go out the window.

Quote:
Denons audio drop out problems


That's Onkyo's TX-DS*9* receivers, not Denon.Posted Image

Quote:
the newer up-conversion issue


I did a lot of research on this and it's very rare. My poll confirmed that. Even Denon's Product Manager stated that not all units are affected, it's very rare. One thread on AVS stated that 1% or less of the units had the problem. Surprisingly, many of the complaints were mainly with units received in February or late January. Seems like a parts induced problem.

Also, these are defects or flaws that you speak of, not the intended design of the unit. You can't take an underpowered receiver in for repair, it was designed to perform in that fashion.Posted Image

Quote:
now it is time to move on.


This is a forum. I don't think anyone should be trying to limit the freedom of speech. If you don't like it, simply don't read it. If someone is bragging about something I don't like, if I don't want to read it, I don't. They have the right to use a forum for discussion.

If you don't call someone on something you don't like, they'll keep doing it. If people aren't concerned or turn their head away from this declining performance, it will not get better. I have a lot of respect for Yamaha as they DO LISTEN. That is the reason they upgraded their RX-V*300. The rep I spoke with stated that they had many, MANY complaints on how the RX-V1200 performed on S&Vs tests. They heard, then listened, and bettered their product. If no one complained, most likely things might have stayed the same or continued to decline. Forums also help manufactures correct issues in upcoming products based on customer feedback. Silencing a forum will not bring better, but worse. Of course this is my opinion.Posted Image

Don't take my message as aggressive. It's not intended to be. Just trying to reply to your comments in the most friendly way I can.

Have a good one.

#43 of 76 RobCar

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Posted March 20 2003 - 12:57 PM

Well, anyway, I do think it has become an interesting discussion.

Getting back to an earlier comment, I suspect that advertising has a lot to do with why we don't read many negative reviews in the magazines. I can understand why a publication wouldn't want to alienate any current or potential sponsors, but as a result, it's less interesting to read.

By contrast, these forums are unrestrained in that way, and it's refreshing. The net result of reporting bad experiences is that the manufacturers will probably respond by making better products, and that's a good thing.

#44 of 76 Evan M.

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Posted March 20 2003 - 01:40 PM

Mike, I think that you have misunderstood some of the comments I made on my last post. When I said that "it is time to move on" I in no way intended that we should not talk about issues and problems on these forums. That is the problem with the typed word, inflection of voice is impossible to convey. I simply meant that all companies are going to have a few minor issues with them, like the problems that I stated with the other brands. I think too many people hear of these problems and totally dismiss any thought on purchasing these products without even trying them. Because of the H/K hiss issue I know of 6 people who now refuse to buy their products without having even tried the unit. What I meant was that people need to move on from these thoughts and just give them a try. I in know way would have ever thought that I was denouncing freedom of speech but if that is how you took it than I do apologize. I hope that I explained my thought process Posted Image.

On the Denon audio drop-out issue, it was an issue with the Denon as well as last years Onkyo models. The problem was a chip in the DTS mode. Both Denon and Onkyo shared the same chip. The reason why it was not heard as much from Denon was because they did a quicker job of fixing the problem than Onkyo. I also know this to be true from a press release from denon a year ago that all authorized denon dealers received to make them and their customers aware of the problem and that it was being fixed. I saw this press release from my local authorized Denon dealer. I am sure that if you did a search on this forum you may find something. It was a huge topic around here over a year ago. I also don't think that what Mark meant by his post is that he hears the hiss. What I think he meant is that if he were to buy this unit after reading the review you speak of, he would not be concerned by the power out put but he would be more concerned of hearing an audible hiss in quiet sections of DD. If you re-read his post I do not think he has any experience in hearing the hiss, it would just be a concern of his if he were purchasing it. He also brings up a good point about the power output not really being a big deal in true home theater applications.

At any rate Mike I love a good debate but I feel as if this is purely a subjective issue that what either one of us thinks really only matters to us Posted Image. I clearly do not listen to my music or movies the way you do. From your past posts you listen to you music and movies loud. Thus power and wattage are important to you. Thus to you performance equals power. I do not blast my movies or music (unless it is star wars and LOTR of course Posted Image ) I prefer a clean yet dynamic and punchy sound for 2 channel stereo and for movies without having to blast a hole in my eardrums.

I echo your sentiments about trying to convey my message in a friendly way. If you take it as anything as such than I apologize, it is that whole typing as opposed to talking thing I referred to earlier Posted Image. It is evident that you know much about technology and I have enjoyed reading your posts. I think I enjoy them because we both did exactly the same things in our receiver purchase and auditioned similar models from the same companies. We just came up with the opposite choice for the same reasons. Funny this whole HT thing. Take care.

#45 of 76 MatthewJ S

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Posted March 20 2003 - 04:40 PM

Getting back to an earlier comment, I suspect that advertising has a lot to do with why we don't read many negative reviews in the magazines. I can understand why a publication wouldn't want to alienate any current or potential sponsors, but as a result, it's less interesting to read.

By contrast, these forums are unrestrained in that way, and it's refreshing. The net result of reporting bad experiences is that the manufacturers will probably respond by making better products, and that's a good thing.
______________________-end quote........
Have you no idea what e-marketing is?
These forums are FULL of paid advertisors posing as your friend from tennesee (or wherever), c'mon you can't be that gullable?......
As for the 2300/3803 back and forth, I would like to add my two cents...
the yammie is louder and cleaner sounding than the 3803 which (imho) runs out of gas with demanding speakers...
I have seen SLEWS of the 3803's in the shops of my company for all sorts of bugs and have "Returned To Vendor'd" countless more...and have told MANY customers that Denon would not honor the warranty because they bought from an unauthorized reseller.....
The proccessing power in the last coupla model years of Denon has gone up and their feature set has improved, but IN MY OPINION it has been at the expense of sound quality and reliability......
that receiver sounds great demo'd through my computer speakers!

I bought the best ones, my buddy would never steer me wrong .He's not trying to make a commission off me and Cambridge Sound's factory direct pricing means that I got a great deal!

It must be a good deal all the people on the net...

#46 of 76 Phil*K

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Posted March 20 2003 - 05:14 PM

Hmmm,

Tennessee, sorry not any paid advertisor,lol. Not even an unpaid advertisor. But I'm sure you just picked that state out of a hat and I'm sure there are plenty of people on this site who have just that purpose. Maybe from rural suburbia, lol. I think both are fine units and you just have to deside for yourself what you like the best.

Phil

#47 of 76 RobCar

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Posted March 20 2003 - 05:18 PM

"These forums are FULL of paid advertisors posing as your friend from tennesee (or wherever), c'mon you can't be that gullable? (sic)......"

I'm not that gullible. If you read these forums long enough, you learn what people's biases are, and you suspect that some people have affiliations. Some probably do, some probably don't. Likewise, some people have agendas. But really, that's their problem.

I was trying say that I find these forums more interesting, whether or not I agree with what is often merely opinion, b/c the atmosphere is less restrained.

Having said that, I'll add that there's a lot of arguing about whose opinion is right, when clearly there's no right answer to that. In this thread, two people who have done extensive auditioning of products had seemingly opposite conclusions. Now that's interesting, don't you think? As Evan M said, "We just came up with the opposite choice for the same reasons. Funny this whole HT thing." I couldn't agree more.

#48 of 76 MatthewJ S

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Posted March 20 2003 - 05:32 PM

Sorry Phil, I honestly did just pull that out of thin air!
that receiver sounds great demo'd through my computer speakers!

I bought the best ones, my buddy would never steer me wrong .He's not trying to make a commission off me and Cambridge Sound's factory direct pricing means that I got a great deal!

It must be a good deal all the people on the net...

#49 of 76 Phil*K

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Posted March 20 2003 - 05:44 PM

No Problem Matt, I was sure you did, but I thought it was worth a laugh.

Have a good one,

Phil

#50 of 76 Mike Up

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Posted March 20 2003 - 08:07 PM

Evan,

Quote:
Mike, I think that you have misunderstood some of the comments

Your correct. Posted Image I didn't think you were rude or meant anything negative, that's why I wanted you to know I wasn't being aggressive in my comment. As you said, it's hard to get the atmosphere of a conversion when it's all in text.Posted Image

I usually don't judge a product by one design flaw, it's only when they are continuing, do I avoid that product brand. This forum and others have been very helpful in that matter and saved me frustration and headaches.Posted Image

Quote:
On the Denon audio drop-out issue, it was an issue with the Denon as well as last years Onkyo models.

I visit many forums and have been doing so for years. The Onkyo problem was a hot subject and can still be. However I have never read of this problem relating to Denon.

Quote:
I do not think he has any experience in hearing the hiss


If not, usually a noise level of -67db will be audible. Unfortunately I had a Technics receiver that tested out at this, and was irritating on soft passages.

Quote:
I feel as if this is purely a subjective issue that what either one of us thinks really only matters to us


Completely agree.

Quote:
Thus to you performance equals power.


I usually don't listen loud, but when I do, I want it to be clean. My findings with normal listening levels were readily apparent to "ME". So I found that I liked the Denon better even at lower listening levels, not just loud levels.

Quote:
I think I enjoy them because we both did exactly the same things in our receiver purchase and auditioned similar models from the same companies. We just came up with the opposite choice for the same reasons. Funny this whole HT thing.


Yeh, what's nice is the diversity. BTW, you do know you're wrong and I'm right?Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

Have a good one and happy listening.Posted Image

#51 of 76 Mike Up

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Posted March 20 2003 - 08:30 PM

Quote:
I have seen SLEWS of the 3803's in the shops of my company for all sorts of bugs and have "Returned To Vendor'd" countless more...


There's that diversity. I've spoke with many authorized Denon repair shops in my area and everyone stated that not one AVR-3803 has come back for repair, siting them as one of the most reliable receivers.

Quote:
and have told MANY customers that Denon would not honor the warranty because they bought from an unauthorized reseller

Unfortunate for those Yamaha owners who bought unauthorized also. Glad I got the units from my trustworthy, authorized dealer or would had been screwed in both instances.

Quote:
The proccessing power in the last coupla model years of Denon has gone up and their feature set has improved


The AVR-3300, AVR-3801, AVR-3802, and AVR-3803 all use sharc processors. The AVR-3300, 3801, and 3802 all pretty much had similar connections. The 3300 was minus 6.1 channel formats though. Other than that, they were all quite similar in features and processing. 3803 added features and connections only to equal what Yamaha, Onkyo, Sony ES, and other competitors were offering. The performance upgrades in DACs and AL24 were bonus. Even Yamaha and Onkyo have up-conversion, just minus component.

#52 of 76 MatthewJ S

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Posted March 21 2003 - 12:51 AM

Processing power in Mips....uses power generates heat....adding amps with same power supply...current draw(?).. don't mean that these are only unique to Denons but wattage without current draw specs and multiple distortion specs taken at differant levels is relatively worthless...let your ears decide in a blind A/B ,THEN YOU'LL BE SURE!
that receiver sounds great demo'd through my computer speakers!

I bought the best ones, my buddy would never steer me wrong .He's not trying to make a commission off me and Cambridge Sound's factory direct pricing means that I got a great deal!

It must be a good deal all the people on the net...

#53 of 76 Evan M.

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Posted March 21 2003 - 03:06 AM

Mike.......LOL ...Dambit, and all this time I thought I was rightPosted Image . Anyway, you're absolutely correct, one must buy Yamaha and Denon from authorized dealers. Those companys are real sticklers when it comes to that.
Denon really did have that audio drop out as well, I saw the press release at my local audio shop and actually saw the same thing posted at my local tweeter. But like I said Denon was quick to make the problem right which is why we heard very little mention of it compared to the Onkyo. That is what I like about Denon, they are usually on top of things.
I understand what people are saying about advertisements. It is such a touchy situation because if you bash a company that pays you to advertise for them, kiss those dollars goodbye. Unfortunatley websites usualy solely rely on advertisements to stay afloat which also puts them in a disadvantage. This seems to be the world that we live in nowadays....one big advertisement Posted Image.

#54 of 76 StephenL

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Posted March 21 2003 - 04:14 AM

The Dolby Digital audio dropout problem has been reported in the following receivers and processors: Denon AVR-1602, AVR-1802; Integra DTR-5.2, DTR-6.2, DTR-7.2, DTR-8.2; Intetra Research RDC-7; Kenwood VR-510, KRFX-9050D; Lexicon MC-12; Onkyo TX-DS595, TX-DS696,TX-DS797, TX-DS898, TX-DS989, TX-L5; Outlaw Audio 1050.
"It's most disappointing. I shall have to go all-out on some modifications."

#55 of 76 Evan M.

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Posted March 21 2003 - 04:49 AM

Thank you Stephen for providing that info, I speant a half hour earlier today trying to search out that info and came up empty on all receivers. I thought for a liitle bit I was loosing my mind Posted Image.

#56 of 76 Evan M.

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Posted March 21 2003 - 04:56 AM

Matt, you shouldn't have anything to worry about. I am sure the problem has been fixed or it is with a select few receivers. Unfortunately Mike had bad luck. Since you are buying from an authorized dealer I certainly wouldn't worry about it. You can always do an exchange. I think if you do a search you will see that Yamaha has one of the, if not the highest reliability records. Enjoy your receiver and let us know how you like it.

#57 of 76 Mike Up

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Posted March 21 2003 - 06:10 AM

Matthew D,

The units I had were defective, this was NOT a design bug. You can be confident that the receiver should work correctly.

As I said, my 2300 was just defective, it also had cosmetic damage. The box was in perfect condition, I mean perfect . So the cosmetic and BM defects had to be caused in production.

I would only caution to check every function to be sure it works correctly and check all bass management configurations to be sure that they steer and filter bass as they should.

I don't think there is any problem with design but feel that the problems were directly related to quality control. As long as you check everything and it seems to work correctly, it will probably last for decades. I love my Yamaha RX-V2095 and it's been a tank. If I didn't like it, I perhaps could sell for less. Since I feel it's worth is high, I just can't give it away and will enjoy it in another room.

The 2300 was a high performer, equaling the performance of my 2095. Having a $1000 receiver equal a $1699 receiver says a lot was upgraded in this receiver. I just felt that the Denon did better being an extreme value. The 2300 is a very good value in it's own right and I want that to come across also. Also consider the 2300 can be had for $150 less than the AVR-3803 so it could be considered a better value by others.

Don't worry, just get from a reputable dealer who'll let you exchange for another or return the receiver if your not satisfied. That way you'll be completely covered. I don't think you'll be disappointed. BTW, the AVR-2300 is software upgradeable. See here in the features list. Unfortunately so was previous models yet Yamaha never did any upgrades. They're not alone. Sony hasn't either, just patches for software flaws. Denon hasn't offered software upgrades to their AVR-4802 or AVR-5800 either. Onkyo is the only brand that has offered actual "software" upgrades. Just brought the port up so fixes could be easier, if it ever needs them.Posted Image

Don't worry and enjoy.Posted Image

#58 of 76 MatthewJ S

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Posted March 21 2003 - 06:20 AM

Mike the rs232 port is not designed at this point for software up[grades but rather for the custom instalation of volume and home banks of presets that can be installed via computer with their CURRENT software ...this makes their EXTENSIVE LIST OF DISCRETE IR CODES activaste many "hidden" features regarding one button "return to bank of complete preset snapshot of all parameters"......all Yammies we installthat have rs232 get a cable attatched to "set-up' these rcvrs to their FULL advantage....
that receiver sounds great demo'd through my computer speakers!

I bought the best ones, my buddy would never steer me wrong .He's not trying to make a commission off me and Cambridge Sound's factory direct pricing means that I got a great deal!

It must be a good deal all the people on the net...

#59 of 76 Phil*K

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Posted March 21 2003 - 07:14 AM

Matt,

I know this is true for the Rx-v3300 on down but for the Z1 it was my understanding that the RS232 was also for future upgrades.

Mike,

If I'm not mistaken there is an upgrade for the 5800 to the 5803 or a resonable facsimile.


Phil

#60 of 76 Adam.Gonsman

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Posted March 21 2003 - 09:32 AM

It's somewhat obscure (and I'm too lazy to call Yamaha right now to absolutely confirm it) but there is indication that the 3300 and 2300 are both software upgradable as well.

Features of the 3300 list under the RS-232 port the ability to upgrade new decoding software should it be necessary. The features for the 2300 list the same thing word for word.

Something to keep in mind, Yamaha is not likely to give anyone new functionality through software even though it would be feasable. Then you wouldn't be so anxious to run out and spend another $3k on next years model. The only thing this really protects against is that if your model has some strange bug in it's current software, that there is a cheap quick way for Yamaha to get the fix to its users and into their units. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to downplay it. This is a very good feature as units become more and more complex and more software takes over the control of the machines. It's more likely that we will continue to encounter an increasing number of software bugs in these things down the road.

I would also wager to say that I think we'll see this ability percolate down through to the lower end equipment very quickly in the the next few years as it's a very inexpensive technology and gives manufacturers a fantastic contingency plan when a flaw is discovered in a particular model.


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