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Denon AVR-3803 Up-Conversion bug Poll


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19 replies to this topic

#1 of 20 Mike Up

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Posted March 14 2003 - 08:51 AM

I currently don't have the horizontal green and magenta bars that travel from bottom to top on the screen while using up-conversion. Since this component costs ~$1000 street, I'm concerned with future problems.

After going through run around for 1 1/2 hours on the phone with Denon, I received information that made me less than happy.

All previous models have the bug and new models that have been upgraded, have a dot on the back by the serial number.

The way it was explained to me is that when the up-conversion circuit is used, there can be a 'conflict' between the Denon's component video's output voltage and the television's component video's input voltage. So in other words, while I don't have the problem now with my current television, I could have the problem if I change televisions. I am definitely not happy with this as the upgrade is very simple, but the time to perform it will be weeks.

I was told that having the conflict is very rare, being there's only one or two complaints per week.

I'm in a dilemma as to send it in for a very "inconvenient and timely" bug upgrade or to live without the upgrade and hope I'll never be affected. I was verbally told, which means that they may not stand behind this technician's "words", that even after the warranty period, if the problem arises, it will be fixed free of charge.

I thought maybe it would help to compile a list of televisions, that are and are NOT affected by this bug.

Maybe it would be good to also include the month it was received, to add even more information.

Let me start. I do NOT have the problem. I am using a JVC AV36D302 television. I received my receiver in late November. Unfortunately, the units do not display the month they were manufactured.

Also talked to Tweeter. They have had absolutely no complaints but are willing to do the upgrade. They say they have sold a ton and I'm the only one to even mention this problem.

Talked to a competeing dealer in the suburbs, and once again, I'm the only one who mentioned a problem. Both dealers state that they have not had one 3803 returned and absolutely no complaints on the upconversion. Both were very willing to do the upgrade but stated they think it's unnecessary being they've had no complaints or any returns of the AVR-3803.

Here's hoping this is a rare conflict.

#2 of 20 Mark All

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Posted March 14 2003 - 09:07 AM

Hey Mike,
I'm using a Pioneer 533HD5 (rear projection HDTV monitor) now. I anticipate keeping the TV for the next three years and then getting something new like a projector or LCoS TV. I haven't had any upconversion problems with my receiver which I got in early December.
Audio, ergo sum.

#3 of 20 Chuck Kent

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Posted March 14 2003 - 02:36 PM

I'm all S-Video so I don't use the up-conversion.

It's not going to be an issue down the road either because when I end up going to a TV that has component inputs (my current 5 year old Toshiba doesn't) I'm planning on going direct to the TV with true high def sources.

#4 of 20 MatthewJ S

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Posted March 14 2003 - 11:56 PM

My company has been swapping them out for our customers, my friend got one on-line though and doesn't know what to do... Denon has refused service....
that receiver sounds great demo'd through my computer speakers!

I bought the best ones, my buddy would never steer me wrong .He's not trying to make a commission off me and Cambridge Sound's factory direct pricing means that I got a great deal!

It must be a good deal all the people on the net...

#5 of 20 CurtisC

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Posted March 15 2003 - 01:05 AM

Heh,I looked and mine does have a small black dot 1/16 inch at the end of the numbers,no problems either.

#6 of 20 Mike Up

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Posted March 15 2003 - 05:23 AM

Curtis, the dot shouldn't be that small. I believe it's a blue dot but don't remember what he said. It's also a 'sticker'. It's to signify that the upgrade has been done.

I've been kind of keeping a footnote of people complaining about this problem in the forums. The affected are only about 8 people. These 8 people have been in 'several' different posts which makes the problem seem wide spread, which it isn't.

Let me also add that I've talked to several technicians and had gotten difference explanations. While these guys know how to fix the problem, they may not know the exact cause. One tech told me it was only when using HDTVs, which was obviously wrong.

The tech that told me the statement that I posted in the original post 'seems' to be correct, but maybe not "100%" correct. I guess take it with a grain of salt.

By making the affected list, this will determine the type of televisions that are affected, the receiver dates that are more affected, and perhaps if this is due to a manufacturing line change related to electronic components. I'm thinking perhaps the line change because of this post and this thread. I've even read posts where one guy had the problem and another who had the "exact" same model television, did not. Posted Image

Reading the above thread, you can see where the manager's explanation is in direct conflict with what the tech told me. Manager states the problem is due to external RF noise corrupting the signals yet the tech states to me it's a conflict between receiver output voltage and television input voltage. Makes you wonder if this isn't something that's a trade secret and we're not getting the whole answer. Maybe the best solution is to follow the manager's suggestion and leave it alone, who knows. Posted Image

Let's keep the poll going if not to help ourselves, to help others.Posted Image

P.S. edited the original post today, the 15th of March. Just in case you'd like to see my changes.Posted Image

#7 of 20 Phil*K

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Posted March 15 2003 - 11:11 AM

Mine had the problem.

I have a Samsung 27" HDTV
Pioneer Elite C36 DVD
JVC forgot the model SVHS

I moved a couple of cables in the begining thinking it was RF interference and it went away and then came back. My guess is that its going to depend on what you have hooked up. That being said, I would get one that has the fix to avoid problems in the future.

Phil

#8 of 20 Mike Up

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Posted March 15 2003 - 05:05 PM

Phil,

The bars you had, were they the colored bars or just dark, black bars? I've seen the none colored bars which are related to ground loop problems and typical interference. This is usually fixed by positioning the cables differently and/or locating the ground loop and correcting the grounding problem. Your interference problem sounds as though it's a different animal than the up-conversion induced problem.

If your problem was the colored bars, you may have opened a new can of worms as moving cables shouldn't affect the up-conversion problem judging comments from Denon. According to DenonJeff's comments, the interference is introduced into the chassis, not to the cables. His statements suggest that there is absolutely no difference between the AVR-5803's circuit and the AVR-3803's circuit. The AVR-5803 doesn't have the problem and was 'assumed' that the AVR-5803 internal chassis shielding combated this interference. If this interference was cable born, it would also affect the AVR-5803, hence my comment you could be opening a new can of worms.Posted Image

Here's hoping it was just cable interference you've seen.

#9 of 20 MatthewJ S

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Posted March 16 2003 - 01:17 AM

REPAIR PERSONNEL i HAVE SPOKEN WITH HAVE IDENTIFIED 3 DIFFERANT AND DISTINCT PROBLEMS THAT ARE NOT UNIVERSAL TO ALL UNITS AND ARE ALSO INTERMITTENT.....
that receiver sounds great demo'd through my computer speakers!

I bought the best ones, my buddy would never steer me wrong .He's not trying to make a commission off me and Cambridge Sound's factory direct pricing means that I got a great deal!

It must be a good deal all the people on the net...

#10 of 20 Phil*K

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Posted March 16 2003 - 03:03 AM

Mike,

I had the red and green color bars. I'm not sure what moving the cables did it may have been coincidental, but they did go away for a while and then came back. After that nothing I tried worked.

Phil

#11 of 20 Stuart R.

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Posted March 16 2003 - 01:40 PM

I have the colored scrolling colored bars on my Sony 32FV15 Wega, but only when using the S-video output of my satellite receiver through the 3803. Have been using composite input on another TV input for video until I have time to get this fixed. Definitely love all else about the 3803.

#12 of 20 Mike Up

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Posted March 16 2003 - 04:32 PM

double postPosted Image

#13 of 20 Mike Up

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Posted March 16 2003 - 04:38 PM

I've been reading more posts and comments from users. I've came across many posts on differing forums where the owners are having no problems with the up-conversion. There are people who have the problem but the people who are affected are 8 or less for each forum. Since many of these people are members of many forums, using different names, the only correct way of accounting the number of the affected is to count within that same forum.

After reading more posts, DenonJeffs comments are in complete opposition to what I was told from techs. Since he's above them, maybe they told me incorrect but only within their knowledge.

DenonJeff states that the up-conversion problem is not only inherent with S-Video to Component up-conversion but also with composite to S-Video up-conversion and will be seen with both circumstances. Therefore, this makes the tech's statement of this being an incompatibility between the receiver's component video output's voltage and the television's component video input's voltage, incorrect.

I think I'll let this go as is really does seem to affect very very few people as I've been reading. Also, by the lack of interest in this thread, says a lot. If people aren't having problems, they're less likely to post, then if they were having problems. I really thought there would be more activity in this thread but perhaps the lack of, is a good sign.

Well, lets still try to keep it going with receiver delivered dates and television models.


Stuart,
So you are using the S-Video output of your satellite receiver to the AVR-3803, and the AVR-3803's component video output to the Sony television, and then having the problem? To avoid this, your going composite from your satellite receiver to the AVR-3803, then composite from the AVR-3803 to a composite input on your Sony TV, correct? If that's true, you are eliminating any up-conversion.

Just out of curiosity, are you seeing the problem with composite to S-Video up-conversion, as DenonJeff stated would occur.

Have a good one everyone.

#14 of 20 Phil*K

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Posted March 16 2003 - 05:33 PM

Mike,

I don't remember my reciever date, but I tried switching my VCR input to composite and it didn't help.

TV model TXM2796HF

#15 of 20 Brian_Dunstan

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Posted March 17 2003 - 06:51 AM

I have not been impacted by any of the bugs mentioned above.

Television: Pioneer SD-582-HD5 (RPTV)

Video Sources:
Satellite Rcvr: Sony SAT-A65 (S-Video)
Satellite Rcvr: Hughes HDVR2 (S-Video)
DVD: Panasonic RP91 (Component)
PS2 (Component)
XBOX (S-Video)

#16 of 20 Matt Weldy

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Posted March 17 2003 - 07:13 AM

mine had the problem dont remember the exact model number but its a samsung 55 widescreen something like hcl55w15.

#17 of 20 John_I

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Posted March 18 2003 - 04:35 AM

I have a panasonic 300u projector that is hooked up with component cables coming from the 3803. Whenever I watch a pre-recorded tape I see the scrolling bars, when I watch a tape I made there are no bars, and when I use the vcr tuner to watch tv no problems either. When I watch any tape and fast forward picture disappears until I stop. I then ran a composite cable directly from vcr to video input on projector and have none of the problems. Sounds like lots of scenarios that have problems.

#18 of 20 jeff_coil

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Posted March 19 2003 - 03:52 AM

I haven't seen yet
Toshiba RPTV 57hdx82

#19 of 20 Stuart R.

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Posted June 15 2003 - 11:10 AM

Mike,
It's probably past time to reply to this post, but I've been changing jobs and moving the last couple of months and out of touch with this forum. But in case you check back, I used the composite input on the 3803 but kept the component input to my tv. The lines went away, but that's not an acceptable fix.

#20 of 20 Mike Up

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Posted June 18 2003 - 12:39 PM

Hi everyone,

I'm still having computer problems. While my computer was being repaired, I got a Dell. The new Dell kept crashing, most likely a result of bad memory, and tech support there has changed to none existent so I sent it back. I'm on a family member's computer right now so it could be another month before I'm able to check back.

Anyhow, a while ago I was discussing this issue at the AVS Forum. It turned out some there that were having this problem had ground loops. They didn't even know about ground loops. As I said to them, many electronic circuits may not show a ground loop but a video conversion circuit is one that will. That's obvious since the grounds in the cables and connectors are being converted to the other format's grounds.

Many were using televisions that were on a plug that was on a separate circuit breaker than the home theater system. Others were unaware that the antenna and it's coaxial cable, cable tv coaxial cable, dish antenna and it's coaxial cable all must be 'grounded' to the electrical ground, not a different, separate ground. Since many satellite and cable installers tend to ground incorrectly, many ground loops are created and only show up on sensitive electronic circuits as the conversion processing. In fact, there's a dealer at AVS(one who is always Denon bashing)who stated even the newer modified units are still showing the problem. The reason most likely is that the modify may have lessened the sensitivity but the circuit will still always show the grounding problem, the ground loop created by improper installation of home theater, cable, and or satellite. I've personally ran into ground loops with my old dish network system. The installer grounded the coaxial cables and dish antenna to an isolated grounding rod and not to the "ELECTRICAL" ground where all your electric circuits are grounded.

Hope that helps some.

See ya whenever.Posted Image

Have a good one.