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Pioneer DV-45A does not have bass management


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#1 of 261 OFFLINE   Tony Genovese

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Posted January 15 2003 - 10:55 AM

Just got off the phone with Pioneer tech support. They confirmed that through the analog outs, the only bass that's reproduced at the subwoofer output is the LFE. So a 5.0 recording will not have any bass at the subwoofer. How the hell would this be considered full bass management? You guys who think your DV-45A is "managing" the bass are kidding yourselves.

With my M&K's that only go down to 80hz, I'm SOL. Well, at least my ICBM showed up todayPosted Image.

#2 of 261 OFFLINE   Lewis Besze

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Posted January 15 2003 - 11:59 AM

According to S&V there is BM, however it changes it's crossover slope compare to the built in DD/DTS decoder's output.Although you could be right while the filters could be there but if there is no "redirection" then it doesn't matter much.

#3 of 261 OFFLINE   Tony Genovese

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Posted January 15 2003 - 12:13 PM

Believe, me, the S&V article re this point is dead wrong. If only LFE goes to the subwoofer, this is not bass management, at least as I understand it.

#4 of 261 OFFLINE   Matthew Anderson

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Posted January 15 2003 - 02:53 PM

Tony,
I have been reading your threads about this subject and I am glad you were able to clear things up about bass mangement with the DV-45A. I was thinking about getting this model because of the bass mgmt but now I think I will get the Pioneer 656A and use the bass management in the 5.1 audio inputs of my Outlaw 950. If I am not satisfied with the sound then I may get one of the ICBMs from Outlaw. I tend to prefer crossovers set at 40 or 60Hz and the ICBM should provide extra control. Like you said, at least your Outlaw ICBM has arrived.

#5 of 261 OFFLINE   Lewis Besze

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Posted January 16 2003 - 05:31 AM

Just curious Tony,besides the Pioneer tech support[not the most crediable source if you ask me],what other ways did you confirm this claim?

#6 of 261 OFFLINE   Tony Genovese

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Posted January 16 2003 - 07:31 AM

Quote:
Just curious Tony,besides the Pioneer tech support[not the most crediable source if you ask me],what other ways did you confirm this claim?

Hi Lewis. I actually used my ears. I played a DVD-Audio 5.0 disk, turned off all the speakers but the sub, and lo and behold the sub was absolutely silent, nada, nothing coming out of it. I then went back and read the review in Widescreen Review and they confirmed it. The bass management does not work on DVD-Audio. I think most folks don't notice it because there aren't a lot of classical DVD-A disks (the majority of 5.0 disks), and there aren't a lot of classical DVD-A buyers. Hence there are few of us who have actually heard the problem. Also, my speakers are M&K 150s which roll off naturally at 80hz, so there's no way they'll kid me into thinking my subs are functioning.

#7 of 261 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted January 16 2003 - 07:49 AM

Drats. I tried to test for this on the 47ai. 2.0 Stones SACD.

But because of the stupid double bass on the 950, when I turn off the 80 Hz analog crossover, it *still* sums the bass to the sub.

If anyone can think of a way to test for this let me know...

(I have the 47ai all "large" now, and use the 80 Hz x-over in the 950. Was going to do all "small" in the 47ai and disengage the analog crossover in the 950. Oh well...)

(I have to get back to work, but maybe I can try this later using a std 2 channel input; not the 5.1 analog input. Double bass isn't supposed to exist on a 2-channel analog input *if* the speakers are set to large in the 950...)
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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#8 of 261 OFFLINE   TanD

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Posted January 16 2003 - 08:01 AM

Kevin,

you should test DVD-A (use 2 ch or 5.0), not SACD, i know the old 47A has bass management for SACD, but not DVD-A, may be the same on 47Ai and the 45A.???

About you 950 don't know how to by pass it!!

may be you can try just connect the LFE of the 47ai to any analog input for example the Left input of a CD and connect the sub to the left preout, then set all speaker to small in the 47ai then listen to a CD input and see the sub have any signal at all.

#9 of 261 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted January 16 2003 - 12:36 PM

Tan- The 47ai does "supposedly" do BM on SACD too. I only have 2 DVD-A discs, and now that you mention it, I think one of them is 4.0.

Yeah, I was thinking about sending the LFE channel to a generic input too. It does have to be the 5.1 analog output from the Pioneer though. I think I can just leave the preout hooked up to one of my mains. About -3 dB at 30 Hz, so I should be able to hear something. The Pioneer's crossover is 100 Hz or so I think.
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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#10 of 261 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted January 16 2003 - 01:46 PM

Hoo-ah! Posted Image

The DV-47ai, at least, does do BM.

Did the setup up above, LFE from the Pioneer to my video 3 input.

I tested the setup with the Blue Man Group DVD-A, which is 5.1. I got bass through my left front speaker. (All large in the 47ai.)

Then I popped in the 2.0 SACD Get Yer Ya Yas Out. Still all large in the 47ai. No bass. As expected.

Then I switched from all large to all small in the 47ai. Got bass.

Now, one very important super duper thing I noticed. When I initially tried to switch from large to small, I switched them in the 47ai's menu, then hit setup to exit. Now, because I'm me, Posted Image I went back and double checked. They were still all large! I discovered that after you switch the setting, you MUST hit the enter key 1st, then setup to exit. Then the change "sticks." I doubt that's your problem Tony, but I did think it was unusual.

Anyway... Got bass? The 47ai does...

Dang, if this thread originated just 2 weeks ago, I still had my 45a here, and I could've checked that one too.
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#11 of 261 OFFLINE   Tony Genovese

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Posted January 16 2003 - 02:17 PM

Quote:
Anyway... Got bass? The 47ai does...


I don't think so...

Kevin:

Either you're not reading or I am incapable of explaining. My problem is with DVD-Audio that does not have a .1 track. Did you test one of those? My problem is NOT with SACD, NOT with DVD-A 5.1 disks, BUT with DVD-A 5.0. I have posted this issue here, on AVS and on the S&V forum, and you know what, not one person has weighed in with a disk similar to mine. (Evidently the most of the ones with this issue are recordings of classical music. The Barenboim Beethoven series, for instance). What does that tell me? DVD-A is not the format for me, because if I am the only guy on 3 forums with one of these disks, I must be completely out of step with the target market. I think what I'm going to do is jettison the Pioneer and buy a combo SACD/DVD-V player (apparently the audiophiles choice). At least I know that the content I listen to (almost exclusively classical) is well represented.

#12 of 261 OFFLINE   TanD

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Posted January 16 2003 - 03:15 PM

Quote:
I tested the setup with the Blue Man Group DVD-A, which is 5.1. I got bass through my left front speaker. (All large in the 47ai.)


Kevin,

you have to test with DVD-A 2.0 or DVD-A 5.0 or 4.0 and speaker set to small not large in the 47Ai, and see the bass redirection occur?

#13 of 261 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted January 16 2003 - 03:24 PM

OK, I thought it was a generic problem to SACD *and* DVD-A. I'll redo the connections and try the 4.0 DVD-A disc I have...

Tony- You are correct sir. :b I have the Ultimate DVD-A Chesky test disc. Has 4.0, 2.0, and 0.1 stuff on it. None of the 2.0 or 4.0 stuff is crossed over by the 47ai. But I did get the 0.1 stuff, which is as it should be. (I redid the Stones SACD test just to make sure I had the connections correct.) I went back to some old 47a reviews I had. That player was the same: BM for SACD, but not for DVD-A. I just can't figure out how so many reviewers have missed this on the 45a and 47ai. I guess they obviously *didn't* specifically test for it.

And even in the latest Home Theater, pg 108 of the Onkyo 800 review: "BM is aboard for DVD-Audio and SACD." That can't be possible as the Onkyo is also based on the Pioneer. Wow.


Parting thoughts: Good thing I have the Outlaw 950 with the 80 Hz analog crossover... Posted Image


Good catch Tony.
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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#14 of 261 OFFLINE   Tony Genovese

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Posted January 16 2003 - 09:03 PM

Kevin:

Thank you! Finally, confirmation!!!

#15 of 261 OFFLINE   Stephen Dodds

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Posted January 16 2003 - 10:01 PM

I have the overseas version of the 45A (DV655A). I have full range speakers so the bass managment isn't a problem for me.

However, until now I have been using a phantom center. Unfortunately, with both SACD and DVD-Audio when you select Center Off, the player outputs in two channel only. It also doesn't do a down mix, it just dumps the other channels.

Does the 45/47 do this as well?

I can't think of a work around short of building a center.


Steve

#16 of 261 OFFLINE   Leo

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Posted January 16 2003 - 10:15 PM

So is Pioneer pushing a player (the 45a) that doesn't do what it says for the $500 price tag? And I have to buy an ICBM to accomplish things properly? I assume I would need an ICBM with all the currently universal players right?I still have time to take mine back but the decision is what to replace it with? Tweeter offers a 120 day upgrade policy on equipment. - Just re-read this, it's with DVD-A (which is not what my collection consists of). But do I still have an issue where I should get the ICBM (using PSB Image 4T, 8C and Alpha A/V's) to aid with better BM?

#17 of 261 OFFLINE   TanD

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Posted January 16 2003 - 10:24 PM

i beleive the yamaha S2300 has bass management for all format, but not sure how comprehensive is it.

#18 of 261 OFFLINE   Tony Genovese

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Posted January 17 2003 - 12:35 PM

Quote:
i beleive the yamaha S2300 has bass management for all format, but not sure how comprehensive is it.

I believe your belief is mistaken. It is based on the Pioneer. If you read the Yammie manual it reads exactly like the Pioneer, so I would think it functions in a similar manner.

#19 of 261 OFFLINE   Kevin C Brown

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Posted January 17 2003 - 12:40 PM

Yeah, here's a strange thing. I have heard that *some* of the Yamaha internals are Panasonic based (that's why the video measured so much better than the Pioneer's in the Secret's shootout). But the remote is a dead clone for some of the older Pioneer DVD remotes. So there might be some Pioneer parts in there too.

Here's what I say: I wouldn't assume that the 2300 has complete BM until someone specifically tests it.
If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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#20 of 261 OFFLINE   TanD

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Posted January 17 2003 - 02:00 PM

no, the S2300 is not based on the Pioneer, it is based Panasonics, and it has bass management setup for DVD-A and SACD seperately, it is not one setup for all, just one for DVD-A, and other one for SACD.


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