Yamaha going very low end? (1 Viewer)

[Mike Up]

Matthew D,

Finally, I'll set the mains to "small" also. Now the sub should always turn on, even in 2 channel stereo. Correct?

Yep.

Good luck, you shouldn't have any problems(hoping ). I just have a knack for finding manufacturers' problem products.

 

[Mike Up]

Matthew D,

If I have my mains as "large", center and rears as "small" and the LFE/Bass Out set to "main" (therefore turning the sub off), how will I really know if the rear and center bass is being redirected to the mains?

With DPL and other surround modes based off of 2 channel stereo, the bass should be just as strong as it was in stereo. Since in DPL, the bass is normally matrixed to the center channel, if that bass isn't steered to the main speakers, the bass will be very weak if not gone completely. There will be some bass in the main channels as there is often some bass information that is stereo in nature or from slight phase differences in the left and right bass signals. That main channel bass will be very weak in nature, as the predominant bass should be placed in the center channel(but when that center channel is selected as small, that bass gets steered to either the main speakers or the subwoofer).

5.1 sources could be checked by changing the center channel's size selection, and then listening for differences in bass on the speakers that you're having that bass sent to, either your mains or your subwoofer. The same could be done with the surround speakers. In both instances, you may need to try different 5.1/6.1 soundtracks to find which gives the most bass in those channels, to make differences easier heard.

Hope that helps.

Have a good one.

 

[StephenL]

Mike Up said:

With both BM problems I experienced, it was an 'in your face' loss of bass. Something that was very APPARENT. With the RX-V596, the sub output just didn't work at all in DPL.

At last someone has confirmed the bass management problem with my HTR-5250 (aka RX-V596). I bought this to replace my RX-V595, which didn't have DTS and S-Video switching. I have some subwoofer output with DPL, but it's very weak. The bass management problem is also apparent with some of the DSPs, especially Disco. I had no bass management problems with the RX-V595. I contacted Yamaha and even sent the HTR-5250 to them in California to be tested. They insisted that it's working to factory specifications.

I've read reports in Sound & Vision about bass management problems in other receivers, and that THX certified receivers are more likely to have bass management that works properly. So I bought an Onkyo TX-DS898. It had the Dolby Digital dropout problem, but it was repaired under warranty.

 

[Phil*K]

Steve,

No offense, but I doubt that the THX logo had anything to do with it, considering the receivers and other equipment that have that logo. More likely is the cost of your Onkyo, for which you could have bought three 5250s. Just food for thought.

Phil

 

[StephenL]

THX has a lot to do with it. THX has strict standards for bass management and other performance. It is certainly possible to find receivers (even low priced receivers) without THX certification that have proper bass management, but I think that independent testing is worthwhile. The bass management problems of the RX-V596/HTR-5250 would have been found and corrected if Yamaha had sought THX certification.

Sound & Vision magazine: THX Certified
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...&page_number=1

Sound & Vision magazine: Behind The Numbers: Digital Sound Receivers
(see "Bass Management" beginning on page 3)
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...&page_number=1

AVS Forum thread: Manufactures,Tell us about your THX Certification process
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=122172

 

[Phil*K]

Other than start a THX war that has been discussed on many occations. I suggest that you go over to the speaker forum and read the thread "the value of the THX rating". You should be able to find it over the last couple of days. I would also ingnor any magazine's opinion concidering the amount of money THX has poored into advertising.

Phil

 

[Mike Up]

StephenL,

It had the Dolby Digital dropout problem, but it was repaired under warranty.

Glad to hear you had that done. Hopefully without the hassles from Onkyo that others had.

Have a good one.

 

[StephenL]

Mike, thanks for the information on the Yamaha RX-V596. Unfortunately I discovered the problem after it was too late to return the receiver. I'd like to know how to repair it.

When I said that THX certified receivers are more likely to have bass management that works properly I wasn't talking about adjustable crossovers, but your point is important and it's addressed in the Sound & Vision article and several of my posts:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...81#post1169381

Regardless of the crossover frequency, bass management should work consistently with all sources including Dolby Digital, DTS, PCM and analog. Some receivers have problems with this. "If a bass-management system has to be used at all — and it must be with most subwoofer/satellite setups — then it should operate the same way with all inputs, analog or digital, stereo or multichannel, in order to avoid changes in bass balance when you change the program source."
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...&page_number=1

Also note the potential problems of a crossover that's too low, even if the speakers have adequate low frequency response:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...rs-9-2002.html

As far as THX processing goes, it distorts the signal from the original sound. THX is a DSP, just as DSPs that are implemented from Yamaha and SOny. THX is a different DSP but a DSP, never the less that CHANGES the original signals.

Your room acoustics can also change the original sound. THX processing is designed to correct that, but you can turn it off if you don't want it.
http://www.thx.com/mod/techlib/receivers.html

 

[Mike Up]

StephenL,

Your room acoustics can also change the original sound. THX processing is designed to correct that, but you can turn it off if you don't want it.

THX does the same as other DSPs, in trying to make you room sound like it's not your room. THX is no different and tries to simulate a large, reflective theater as most of Yamaha's DSPs do. In fact, Yamaha has a DSP that simulates the characteristics that THX does, it's the "enhanced" DSP mode.



I see you reference a lot of other's opinions and research in making your points. Nothing wrong with that. I do a lot of my own tests with different components to determine how they work, and what's best. S&V's articles are nice but are so basic, they're common knowledge to the vintage home theater hobbyist.

THX's comments are, well, THX's comments which are biased toward their products. Yamaha has their own competing technology here. As you can tell, I don't particularly care for THX or their DSP. If their THX license fee wasn't passed onto the customer, I wouldn't care less. To keep a product at a price point/class, if there is a THX license fee, then that cost must be cut somewhere on the receiver design, to balance the product expense to be at the determined price point. I've also seen THX products test pretty bad, and it's frustrating when people buy these products for the supposed quality, when they could had gotten better from a none THX product, at a cheaper price to boot!

Have a good one and nice references.

 

[Robert McClanahan]

FYI, Yamaha is dumping receivers on the market.They just want their name in your living room.Costs are coming down but so is quality.Even Sony ES is getting cheap.I love Yamaha gear,its just that I wonder who is making these stupid decisions at Yamaha.

 

[Mark All]

I wonder who is making these stupid decisions at Yamaha

I agree that Yamaha is slipping into the territory of using its brand name unwisely. Yamaha used to make very good separate components, especially amplifiers, and I have been surprised to see the company put their brand on such cheap home theater receivers. Still, that's where the money is now. At the lower end of the market, I think other brands probably offer more value at the same price level. In the past, I always had the image of Yamaha being a notch above companies like Sony and Pioneer. Yamaha's products seem to be only on par with them now. I'd like to see Yamaha focus more attention on higher end receivers, amplifiers and pre/pros once again.

 

[MatthewJ S]

FYI, Yamaha is dumping receivers on the market.They just want their name in your living room.Costs are coming down but so is quality.Even Sony ES is getting cheap.I love Yamaha gear,its just that I wonder who is making these stupid decisions at Yamaha.
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WOW!...that is what I've been saying abiut DENON for the last couple of model years!...everyone is entitled to their own opinion...
I sell Yamahas and use them on MANY of my custom install jobs because I ALMOST NEVER have any kind of problems with them...keep in mind that these are all RXV ,not HTR SERIES(which get much less QC), AND most are 1300 and aboves (a few 630/730's)....

 

[JeremyFr]

Ok I've got the 730 and am very happy with it and can guarantee it will pass by most recievers in its price range. I really have no respect for S&V testing especially since they dont publish what methods they use or anything on the testing circumstances. Also the 730 is no where listed on that site published. I've been to that page before and if you'll notice almost everything on it is quite old in review dates. 5 years in some cases. At anyrate like I said I'm very happy with my 730 and would put it up against just about nething in the same price range.

 

[StephenL]

Mike, the Yamaha HTR-5250 is the only receiver with bass management problems that I've had personal experience with. Here are a few from Sound & Vision magazine test reports:

July/August 2002. Panasonic SA-HE100: Crossover inoperative in stereo; bass level reduction in DPL II and Neo:6.

May 2002. Sherwood Newcastle R-963: Manufacturer claims bass management for multichannel analog input, but Sound & Vision found that bass below 80 Hz is not redirected to subwoofer.

November 2000. Philips FR975: Loss of bass management with stereo analog input. JVC RX-8000V: Loss of bass management with stereo digital and analog input. Of the three receivers tested in this issue, only the Onkyo TX-DS575X had correct bass management.

October 2000. Outlaw Audio Model 1050. No bass management on back surround channel. As a result of the review Outlaw corrected the problem on later units.

MatthewJ S said:

Sound & Vision does publish their testing methods:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...&page_number=1

 

[MatthewJ S]

Yamaha pulls three times the # of rxv units off the line for full QC check than it does on the "concert" series...other than that ,this year, they are identical...

 

[Robert McClanahan]

Matt,I too do custom installations and my company sells Yamaha gear.Customers like Yamaha because they are very user friendly.They like the sound but the customers really seem more concerned about ease of use.I am concerned about the current trend by manufacturers to put out these hometheater in a box systems.I have seen alot of these come through our repair shop.