george kaplan
Senior HTF Member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2001
- Messages
- 13,063
Lew,
First, just to be clear, my response wasn't specifically targeted at you - a number of people have been questioning the inclusion of well-made films as candidates for worst.
I think the two examples you bring up, Birth of a Nation and Triumph of the Will are a different, yet similar situation. Neither of these (for me), is a badly made movie, nor do they fail to be compelling cinema of a sort. I've said before if Triumph of the Will were about Martin Luther King's I have a Dream speech, it would be (IMO), one of the greatest documentaries ever made.
I can separate out those factors, but again, there's another issue - racism and a political stance in these films I find repugnant. Though different in a major way from why I dislike Cries & Whispers, I do think this is another legitimate reason to view BoaN and TotW as 'bad' movies. Again, that doesn't prevent me from admiring certain aspects of those films, but my holistic judgments of them are certainly negative ones. Of course, I throw some other films into that same batch that others don't (e.g., Do the Right Thing).
I think there are lots of legitimate reasons to view a film as great or bad. Certainly my criteria for doing so are different than most on this forum. Frankly, I have a very hard time understanding how a film like The Mirror or Man with a Movie Camera, with basically no narrative structure at all (or rather none that I can fathom or appreciate), can be viewed as great movies. Nor can I understand how certain very funny, well-written, and well-acted comedies with no 'deeper meaning' can be viewed as amongst the worst films ever made. But my inability to understand those viewpoints only means that I disagree with the opinions, but they're still perfectly valid and appropriate opinions for someone to have.
First, just to be clear, my response wasn't specifically targeted at you - a number of people have been questioning the inclusion of well-made films as candidates for worst.
I think the two examples you bring up, Birth of a Nation and Triumph of the Will are a different, yet similar situation. Neither of these (for me), is a badly made movie, nor do they fail to be compelling cinema of a sort. I've said before if Triumph of the Will were about Martin Luther King's I have a Dream speech, it would be (IMO), one of the greatest documentaries ever made.
I can separate out those factors, but again, there's another issue - racism and a political stance in these films I find repugnant. Though different in a major way from why I dislike Cries & Whispers, I do think this is another legitimate reason to view BoaN and TotW as 'bad' movies. Again, that doesn't prevent me from admiring certain aspects of those films, but my holistic judgments of them are certainly negative ones. Of course, I throw some other films into that same batch that others don't (e.g., Do the Right Thing).
I think there are lots of legitimate reasons to view a film as great or bad. Certainly my criteria for doing so are different than most on this forum. Frankly, I have a very hard time understanding how a film like The Mirror or Man with a Movie Camera, with basically no narrative structure at all (or rather none that I can fathom or appreciate), can be viewed as great movies. Nor can I understand how certain very funny, well-written, and well-acted comedies with no 'deeper meaning' can be viewed as amongst the worst films ever made. But my inability to understand those viewpoints only means that I disagree with the opinions, but they're still perfectly valid and appropriate opinions for someone to have.