World's Best Sub? (1 Viewer)

[Tom Brennan]

Michael----I've seen articles on even bigger built-in basshorns. Check this out www.scrounge.org/speak/burwen/index.html

 

[Tom Brennan]

Mark---Oh yeah, lots of us old hornies know about the Eleanor Powell "double-click" incident at MGM in the early 30s when the monitor was WE 555s on snailhorns with Bostwick tweeters having about a 12' path length differnce between the 555s and the Bostwicks. As you probably know John Hilliard, the Zeus of the Horn Gods, investigated and was satisfied that 3ms difference was inaudible with a 500-1000hz crossover. And with the Shearer Horn he was able to get the difference down to about 2ms. This must have still bugged John though because only 10 years after he led the Shearer development team he introduced the Altec VOTs with perfect alingment of tweeter and woofer being one of his goals, thus he ditched the Shearer folded horn and went to the famous horn-reflex VOT bassbins. And some audiophiles think this stuff is new.

 

[Parker Clack]

Altec VOTs. Damn those are fine! I would LOVE to have 5 of them in my HT!

Now back to subwoofers.

Parker

 

[Tom Brennan]

Parker---The closest I came to 5 VOTs in a sysytem was 2 A7-500 VOTs for mains, an Altec 605 15" Duplex studio monitor for center and JBL 4560s (the JBL version of the Altec 825 VOT cabinet)matched with JBL LE-175s on horn-lenses for the surrounds. This rig would have worked in a 450 seat theater so down in the basement the sound was utterly effortless. Now I use Altec 515s in my 825 cabinets up front (making them A5s) with JBL 2420 compression drivers on Edgar wooden "saladbowl" tractrix horns. I moved the 605 back upstairs with it's mate for a nice tube driven stereo, I go centerless now, no big deal. In the rears I use Radio Shack speakers, 5" woofs with film tweeters. The big JBL cabinets I gave away, things were getting out of hand. The VOT, in it's many incarnations both professional and home, was the greatest line of speakers ever made, I know many people who use them for home listening. Check this out www.voiceofthetheatre.com

 

[Scott L]

Hmmmm, what about the Wilson Audio XS?
http://www.wilsonaudio.com/products/xs/index.html
2 18"ers I can't even imagine moving that sucker from one corner of the room to the other.

 

[Dustin B]

That's supposed to be the big problem with it 700lbs or something like that. One reviewer reported that experienced piano movers had to make several attempts to get it into his house.

ChrisA (I think that's who HealthNut on AVS is) used the latest version of the siesmic driver the XS uses to build 4 seperate subs (he has two stacked in each front corner) that are a little larger than half an XS, but tuned lower and with larger ports. I believe Chris said the driver in the XS is two versions behind what he used. In Chris's opinion the XS is underported. I think Chris had custom 9.75" ports made for each sub.

 

[Mark Seaton]

For comparison with the XS, check their claimed output at 16Hz, and the fact that they don't qualify the conditions of that output. Then observe the size and weight of the XS. Now take another look at the ContraBass. No need to mention that you could buy and power 3 Contras for the cost of an XS. Of course it doesn't say "Wilson" on the box... :rolleyes

 

[Jeffrey Noel]

How much do the Contras cost? They pretty expensive? Just curious!

 

[JeremySt]

So from that aspect, jewelry might be an accurate description, since the aluminum is strictly a "looks cool whiz bang" thing, not an inherently superior material.

I would say that is innacurate. Because Aluminum is very non-resonant, it eliminates distortion.
Subwoofers in general create bass through distortion and cabinet resonance. The Krell goes against that logic, and creates its bass through moving soundwaves pressurizing the listening environment. Not just making it's own enclosure vibrate.
But for thoseof us thatdon't have 30k, the best sub I have ever owned is... http://www.martinlogan.com/descent_speaker.html

 

[Dustin B]

Subwoofers in general create bass through distortion and cabinet resonance

Say what
There are some pretty bad commecial sub out there I'll agree. But I don't think even the worst one would produce more bass from cabinet resonance then from the driver and/or port/PR. And certainly not from distortion.
Good sonotube, MDF or void free ply enclosures (with the non cylinder ones properly braced) will sound just as good as an alluminum enclosure. The alluminum enclosure won't make an noticeable difference, if any difference at all.
I'd also say alluminum is very resonant, just at frequencies significantly higher than what subwoofers play.
The Descent I'm sure is a very nice sub, but still lacks output in the last octave and costs too much (the Krell is just ridiculous, the Descent is not ridiculous, but still too expensive).

 

[JeremySt]

but still lacks output in the last octave and costs too much

Have you heard the descent? It is rated in the owners manual to 20hz, but believe me, it plays lower. Costing too much is completely relative. It costs too much for you, maybe. Audio is like cars. If all you are used to seeing and driving is Toyotas, then a Ferrari might seem a little steep, but the performance is absolutly there. Thats how it is for me. Just because most HT'ers are spending a couple hundred bucks per component, does not mean it is the best, and everything else is too expensive. Sure, there is a lot of audio gear out there that is overpriced, but some of it is worth every penny.

I have owned many subs, and the Descent is at the top of my list. I previously owned the similarly priced Velodyne HGS-15, and I loved it too. Why did I get a different sub? Well, this a hobby to me, and the defenition of a hobby is something you start with the intention of never finishing.

 

[Tom Brennan]

Jeremy---If you think aluminum is non-resonant you oughta try striking an aluminum Altec 511B horn with a hammer, thing rings like a bell, that's why hornies goop them up with modeling clay, Mortite, undercoating, mount them in sand-filled boxes etc. Speakers aren't like cars; cars are sophisticated machines with thousands of moving parts, speakers are almost the simplest of machines with behavior that's been very well understood since T/S theory became common knowledge in the 1970s. And driver development is little improved since the 1930s, some would say not improved at all in sonic terms. Not to knock your preference, that's inviolate, just your reasoning.

 

[ling_w]

You can't say the Krell MRS is expensive for no reason. It has a full FPB-650M inside it. That alone is over $10k. That is why it could sustain 2600 continuous watts (650w into 2 ohm load) (class-A)

Whether you think a $100 receiver's amp stage or a PA amp is the same as a FPB-650M when it comes to bass reproduction, that is up to you.

And its casing is made out of 1" thick billet machined aluminum. I've seen it in various stages of assembly. I could tell you, it is dead to the knuckle test. I've seen corian, laminated wood/lead... These are at least their equal.

 

[Brandon B]

I would sure hope the cabinet is dead for 30K.

And what I said, Jeremy, was that aluminum is not a superior material for building sub cabinets out of. Because it isn't. Not inferior, just more trouble. You can build a solid, well-braced cabinet out of marble, ply and/or MDF or whatever that will be just as dead for a fraction of the cost.

The Krell will do a lot better if you drop it off the back of a truck I imagine though.

BB