Woof-Mania/Sub-Age Overkill Observation! (1 Viewer)

[frank manrique]

quote:

"This certainly seems to be the most practical way to insane levels of output. Franks many SVS's are certainly are an impressive display but consider Paul W's IB with 18 of the 15" DVC's. Thats, what, 45 liters of displacement? Granted its a sealed alignment vs the ported SVS's. But think how much room space it requires to get enough box or cylinder subs in a room to reach these levels of excess."

Ryan,

I chose a commercial route to acquire an infrass system that leaves little to be desired...not because am rich (am far from it--and can't even retire yet!--all because of stupid politicians messing with the electrical de-regulation in California in addition to Enron having a great deal of culpability for causing my--and thousands of unlucky others!--401K retirement fund to dig about as close to the center of earth as my SVS subs usually do! )...plus becoming indebted in order to indulge my hobby's needs.

To tell the truth...had I the know-how...time...and better physical ability (I ain't an spring chicken, you know; am more like an old turkey instead! ) I would have built the exact infrass system Tom Nausine has in home (featured in Stereo Review mag some years ago) or something of similar design...would have amassed a bank of powerful amplifiers with which to drive it...and EQ'd it close to perfection...but I don't, so did the next best thing: bought the SVS subbass systems instead!...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

 

[DelRay]

c'mon guys, Face it, It's hard to impress some friends with a bunch of 1 inch tweeters. But throw some 25hz bass with 115db of sound. That will get their attention.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Nousaine used one Crown amp to run all those speakers.IB sub needs the least amount of power compared to the boxed designs as the woofer don't encounter any back pressure since there isn't a box to create it.For instance the amount of power you need for the pair of B4s are much greater then what Nousaine uses on his basement IB.The same goes for your 8 cylinders if you still have them.You could also hire a carpenter/cabinetmaker to make the manifold box for you,all you need is a basement or attic,and find a way to let the air in[from the drivers or manifold],or use an adjoining room or closet and install the drivers directly on the wall[listening room].

 

[frank manrique]

quote:

"Nousaine used one Crown amp to run all those speakers.IB sub needs the least amount of power compared to the boxed designs as the woofer don't encounter any back pressure since there isn't a box to create it.For instance the amount of power you need for the pair of B4s are much greater then what Nousaine uses on his basement IB.The same goes for your 8 cylinders if you still have them."

Well, am a great believer of Professor Rainer's dictum: there never is enough power (watts) in audio reproduction (or something to that effect), so I'll stick to that notion a bit longer...

"You could also hire a carpenter/cabinetmaker to make the manifold box for you, all you need is a basement or attic, and find a way to let the air in [from the drivers or manifold], or use an adjoining room or closet and install the drivers directly on the wall[listening room]."

Ha! Just couple of blocks away from my humble digs is a commotion going on (and will continue 'till July 29, so am told) that you won't believe: the folks of the "Extreme Makeover" TV show (plays on Sunday nights on ABC) are re-doing someone's home (like we need that kind of exposure in Redlands--my, what will the Orange County yuppie rejects and their larva going to think of our once beautiful, calm, quiet, peaceful town now?! ).
Anyways, I stopped by the other night, stood among the gathering crowds and blurted words to the effect "...hey, dudes...my SVS subs are orphans and need a real bitching habitat in which to live and do their thing; wanna re-do my HT?" to which they rather angrily retorted: "...hey clown, that doesn't qualify you for an extreme makeover!" Unfazed by such rejection I still insisted..."I just need my HT redone, not the whole house (which really needs to, but, hey, why push my luck!)," only to be told once again: "...get lost, old man; we ain't doing your digs, no way...no how!" Rats! And I thought my 15 minutes of fame were about to become reality!

Look, I fully realise what you say is true, but chose an slightly different path. Yet that's not to say I wouldn't do precisely what you suggest one day in the future simply because I don't think I will ever stop experimenting with infrabass reproduction...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

 

[Ryan Schnacke]

Frank,
I figured you had your reasons. And its actually pretty cool to see someone with the means/credit and space and freedom to do what you've done.

I was just thinking of the guys who would like to have similar capabilities but feel like it can't be done in a reasonable budget and in limited space. I think I'm slowly trying to convince myself to bite the bullet and cut the hole in my ceiling.

 

[Lewis Besze]

all box desingns add coloration to the sound something that IB is mostly free from.Besides money it's another reason to start experiment with it.

 

[ChuckRG]

I am a multiple sub person (dual B4's) and for a while tried dual PB2's in addition.

I have said this before but will restate that it is all about moving air. The more drivers involved means each moves a shorter distance means cleaner bass and LOTS more impact when the source requires it.

When you move enough that the walls move enough to distort the sound, then you have more than enough bass...that is why I sold my PB2's

 

[frank manrique]

quote:

"all box desingns add coloration to the sound something that IB is mostly free from. Besides money it's another reason to start experiment with it."

One of these days, Lewis...one of these days.

Btw, what Inland Empire city do you reside in?...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

 

[frank manrique]

quote:

"I was just thinking of the guys who would like to have similar capabilities but feel like it can't be done in a reasonable budget and in limited space. I think I'm slowly trying to convince myself to bite the bullet and cut the hole in my ceiling."

If and when you "bite the bullet"...please let me know! Am very interested in projects such as you describe, so would greatly like to know the end results...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

 

[frank manrique]

quote:

"I am a multiple sub person (dual B4's) and for a while tried dual PB2's in addition.

I have said this before but will restate that it is all about moving air. The more drivers involved means each moves a shorter distance means cleaner bass and LOTS more impact when the source requires it.

When you move enough that the walls move enough to distort the sound, then you have more than enough bass...that is why I sold my PB2's"

Then I take it that your B4-Plus twins produce more than enough bass, as you say...not so much as to move walls, thus distort the sound, but enough to be more than capable in meeting all your requirements that the PB2s actually became liabilities rather than assets...?

Umm...who knows; perhaps I find my self in the same situation as well. Time will tell, tho...time will tell...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

 

[Frank Carter]

Hey Geoff,

Just wanted to stop in and add one more Frank to this discussion.

Now don't go looney when you read this but I might be picking up a used Tumult. The guy think's it's overkill for his situation but he's not sure whether he wants to part with it yet. I'm doing my best to convince him he doesn't need it. Oh yeah, it's not going to replace anything either. It's going to be in addition to the two 6' tall AV15 sonosubs. I already have a 1000W amp waiting for the Tumult.

I'm running out of space in the bedroom.

 

[ChuckRG]

Frank:

You are correct. In fact, the dual PB2's sounded better than all four together. Correctly set up in the correct location (in my case on the side walls near the center of the wall) and either EQ'd or, in my case, using digital room correction, the dual B4's are the best reproduced movie bass I have ever heard in any room (given the limitations of my particular room).

I have been in the audio business a long time an have been in many rooms (consumers) to hear many subs (as well as at CES, and many dealers) and I will still take my B4's. There may be better but I've heard enough to not have any interest in wasting any more time looking.

That said, I have NOT heard an IB. The only problem with auditioning in my room is that you can not try-and-buy....you need to tear up walls, ceiling or whatever else you use.

 

[terence]

One man's overkill is another's headroom! I always say.

I think it's about these things below.

1.You may not use your sub/subs to they full potential, but knowing you have more gas in the tank when needed is a good thing.

2.It’s not about quantity it’s about quality as well no matter how many subs it takes to achieve it or what design best suits your needs to get there.

3.It’s about passion, fun and imitating life (real world sounds) in your HT in your home.

4.It’s about chasing perfect sound to find your own nirvana with in your given budget.

5.To each his/her own.

6.Ones’ room might call for massive woofage to achieve what one great sub dose in a smaller space.


Some do go over the top depending on whose view you are looking at from. Sound too can is also in the ear of the beholder as well as beauty is to the eye. We all have our own different taste, needs and wants. Sometimes we may realize what we thought we wanted, is not what we really needed and make the right decision for our true needs. You got to admit its fun reading about the endless possibilities and some of us living thru others experiences is really cool sometimes. One HTF member here for sure is taking me on adventure and i can't wait to see how it ends.

Great thread guys!

 

[Lewis Besze]

Riverside,pretty much next door to you.

 

[Geoff L]

It seems this is a mostly an on-going justification of reasons to have over kill woofen..

Allot of reasons why one needs Mega Woofage. To each their own..
I'll agree to that.

Seems many miss the point that was laid out (I thought pretty clear) in the first few posts. We can drag everyting imaginable into this, distorsion #'s, power compression, better/cleaner Infra bass extension, etc, and those things do hold merrits to a point with those looking to go deeper at the same spl.
The type sub design, IB's, Iso's, Ported, Sealed, Push Pull, Combos of something, etc and the needed woofage to hold that clean spl at your normal listening levels,,,,, may require more woofage to get your new wanted extension & spl cleanly.
Agree

BUT:
I still think that this seemingly over the top I can't stop woof mania, pushes some people reading this stuff to feel that their already very capable sub/s, that meet the basic criteria laid out in the first post, to feel well ghez maybe another 2-3 to what the heck, 14 subs, are needed.

A few seem to get the point, most seem to just want to justify why they need all this woofage, more is better bottom line. Everthing from because I can, to because it lowers dist, power compression, cone travel, cleaner is better, yeah yeah yeah etc,,,,,

Calibrated the system plays the same spl/volume (you choose) and if your reaching this cleanly with good unstressd sub/headroom still left over while doing your "normal listening level", what the hell to you need more for.
If ones NORMAL listening level rises you might very well need more woofage & I never would dispute that.

The room area/volume your trying to fill, the extension you want, and the top spl you like to listen at, all have a bearing on what is going to be needed to be considered to reach a non stressed proper amount of clean woffage while doing ones movie/music listening.

Frank m:
If you want total bass nirvana the money spent on all those sub's would have easily been able to buy you a HQ carpenter and the hardware needed to build you a Mega Woof/Extension/Machine IB you mentioned you might pursu someday. You want the best bass quaility and extension out their, an monster IB rules. You already know that tho....

In your case a Mega Monster IB using maybe (24) big VD 15-18" subs, to gosh more likely 50 or more, seems right up your alley.
This assuming you have the area somewhere to put them.

I think some of you guys are just plain wacko about bass, period!

This is not directed to anyone in particular, but how many with Mega Woof over kill bass, have systems that can keep up with all that super clean bass you just have to have!! Some have for sure, but I bet many others have systems that cannot keep up.
More clean woofage than system when you run it out to max clean spl...

 

[Mike Keith]

I have an all active system that can reach ear bleeding levels with little audible distortion, but during cretin bass passages my 2-18" Maelstroms still suffer from compression. All I want for Christmas is a sub system with no compression during any material I play at ref levels, then I'll be happy. I think Mark Seaton said it best concerning compression, and I'll agree with this stand point.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Again, when you can get all that's recorded at the levels intended...than you have enough. The recent Yates articles in "Untimate A/V" show how difficult that is. If someone believes it's "not necessary", so be it.


Be specific. Those things you mention are important to those with a decent understanding of the topic. yeah, yeah, yeah...

 

[John S]

Hmm, I fit into both catagories on this one. lol

I only have one relatively modest sub, but man do I run it hot and heavy. I know I run it way over calibration, and I guess I don't care, I make sure I feel the action though to say the least.

 

[ChrisBee]

How can they sell a Ferrari or Lamborghini in a country with a national speed limit which can be exceeded by these cars in first gear?

Because people want them. :b

How can they sell a pair of PB4+'s & 8 x 16-46's or paired Ultra's or multiple drivers for True IBs?

Because people want them.

ChrisBee

 

[Geoff L]

Jack:
Your right, those are "valid and important points" in Woofen to those with an understanding of the topic/s.
I didn't need the yeah x 3 on the end...
My Bad as those are very important in subwoofen....:b

How many commerical subs out their are capable ofa clean 10Hz and or lower bass with any real spl. As it has been mentioned in this thread and (other threads just on DVD material topics), their are DVD's that have some usable material as low as 10Hz and lower. DIY is most likely the only way to get this type of deep FR with "any real clean output/spl" and certainly would need to be designed specificaly for it. Not a cheap indevor by any means, and if actualy done one could litterly make their guest ill if they like...

I belive it's around 10 cycles (when sustained with some spl) you can begin to effect the workings of internal organs of the human body...?

To each his own when subben and in reality it's definetly a personal choice. I still feel that many are caught up (or get caught up), in Woofage Overkill.
JMO and we all do what we do for what ever reason.

I'm not trying to stop or change people ideas of subben, gosh no! But the some times overkill that some seem bent to hell on achiving, is, well interesting at the least.

I love deep accurate bass especially (25Hz and under), as much as the next person for sure. When produced clean, with hopefully no added harmonics and uncompressed.

The Ice Fields are calling/T-AE
Geoff