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"Winds of War" & "War and Remembrance" (1 Viewer)

Carabimero

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I just watched both of these series late last year. They hold up well, but Ali McGraw was painfully over-matched by the rest of the cast. Love Mitchum as much as ever and the score was still as wonderful as I remembered.
 

younger1968

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Carabimero said:
I just watched both of these series late last year. They hold up well, but Ali McGraw was painfully over-matched by the rest of the cast. Love Mitchum as much as ever and the score was still as wonderful as I remembered.

I did notice the weak acting of Ali McGraw along with Jan-Michael Vincent. I like Jan-Michael Vincent, but in roles where he is more in action role. Airwolf was perfect for Jan Micheal!!



Mitchum makes the miniseries with acting/smarts into role of Pug!


FYI - I plan to get "War and Remembrance", but when the price drops. It is too expensive rate now for me to buy due to other demands on my budget!
 

Jack P

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Five years ago, I slogged my way through both miniseries over a period of several months and when it was over I felt like I deserved an "I Survived" t-shirt.

"Winds" is the better miniseries overall. "War's" chief problem is that it was already a dinosaur before it got on the air since the public was by then no longer patient to sit through something that long. Dan Curtis knew it and consequently the second half of War had more than several hours hacked out and in the process a lot of narrative threads are poorly developed or come to a crashing halt. Yet, it was clear that not a minute of the Holocaust depictions were to be sacrificed. I understand the sentiment behind this, but this only served to underscore the chief flaw of the miniseries and that's the fact that the Aaron-Natalie storyline with its *endless* twists and turns of close calls and near-misses after a while gets very uncomfortable to sit through when its going on for hours on end. Frankly some editing in spots to tighten the running time and not jettisoning some of the other plotlines (at one point it looks like Byron is going to start an affair with his widowed sister-in-law Janice but then she abruptly disappears with no explanation. Why is Leslie Slote suddenly in the OSS and parachuting in?).

I also felt that "War" whitewashed the fact the Japanese were themselves the equals of their German allies when it came to committing atrocities. When something is this long, that's going to become noticable whereas a shorter treatment it may not have.
 

Jasper70

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I’m surprised no one has rereleased WAR, it’s OOP and commanding big prices.
TWOW is still in print.
I’d love to see a Blu-ray treatment of both. Yes, they have flaws but they do tell a great story. I don’t have any children or consequently grandchildren but if I did I’d make these required viewing simply from the historical standpoint.
 

Jack P

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Just to get one other thing off my chest regarding both miniseries. I *really* disliked Victoria Tennant and her character. Her fixation on Mitchum only came off as creepy and in the end it damaged Mitchum's performance. Without Tennant I could buy Mitchum in the other scenes but the minute she started coming on to him, it just brought things to a crashing halt.
 

Super Chief

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War and Remembrance really needs to be re-released in a better quality transfer. It is probably the best, and undoubtedly most comprehensive, historical drama ever made.

Do any of the DVD versions of W&R include the deleted scenes from episodes 8-12?

It is my recollection that at the time, November 1988, ABC was cost cutting and there was a writer's strike, so they cut quite a bit from episodes 8-12, which ran in May 1989. Does anyone know how many hours were cut from episodes 8-12?
 

Ethan Riley

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War and Remembrance really needs to be re-released in a better quality transfer. It is probably the best, and undoubtedly most comprehensive, historical drama ever made.

Do any of the DVD versions of W&R include the deleted scenes from episodes 8-12?

It is my recollection that at the time, November 1988, ABC was cost cutting and there was a writer's strike, so they cut quite a bit from episodes 8-12, which ran in May 1989. Does anyone know how many hours were cut from episodes 8-12?

The deleted scenes have never been shown anywhere. Doing some math, I come up with approximately 3 hours of missing footage because it was touted as a 30 hour mini-series and it runs for 27 hours. I think I said earlier in this thread that it's likely Dan Curtis preserved the footage. It would take a major miracle, however, to re-assemble it all properly but I think it's worth doing if they ever try to put the two minis on blu-ray.
 

Mark-P

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I don’t understand the cost-cutting aspect. If the footage was already shot, how does it save money not to use it?
 

Jack P

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It was because the ratings were off and ABC didn't want to commit as much of their primetime schedule to something that was no longer a ratings winner.
 

Sam Favate

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I'm currently watching War and Remembrance, after watching Winds of War a month or so ago. In terms of picture quality, Winds was definitely better. W&R seems to suffer from the reliance in the late 80s on videotape.

That said, many of the cast changes in W&R are for the better. While it can be jarring for the audience to recast, having Jane Seymour instead of Ali McGraw, and Hart Bochner instead of Jan Michael Vincent just works better. (Sharon Stone, however, doesn't fit. She looks like a woman from the 80s.) One thing the show cannot be faulted for is the writing.
 

David Weicker

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The deleted scenes have never been shown anywhere. Doing some math, I come up with approximately 3 hours of missing footage because it was touted as a 30 hour mini-series and it runs for 27 hours. I think I said earlier in this thread that it's likely Dan Curtis preserved the footage. It would take a major miracle, however, to re-assemble it all properly but I think it's worth doing if they ever try to put the two minis on blu-ray.
Are you saying this has a run time of 27 hours for a '30 hour' miniseries?

Wouldn't the 3 hours be due to commercials? Twenty Seven hours of run time would equate to Thirty 54minute tv hours. And given the era, 6 minutes per hour would not be unheard of.
 

Super Chief

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Are you saying this has a run time of 27 hours for a '30 hour' miniseries?

Wouldn't the 3 hours be due to commercials? Twenty Seven hours of run time would equate to Thirty 54minute tv hours. And given the era, 6 minutes per hour would not be unheard of.
I had the same thought, and I think the quoted 30 hours did refer to the total of the original time slots, including commercials. But watching them recently, episodes 8-12 did seem rushed in some ways. Maybe they did run out of time/budget near the end. I had read the book before the series aired on TV, and I don't remember the TV adaptation seeming chopped too much at the time. So I just re-read the last parts of the book, and I can understand some of the cuts. There are a lot of naval battle descriptions in the book that are long and would be hard to recreate on screen. The Battle of Midway was recreated at length in the TV series, but some of the others were not, particularly the Battle of Leyte Gulf. Instead, there was a brief reference and the newsreel coverage, as with other, mostly land battles. There are some other minor scenes from the book near the end that had no coverage or just brief references in the TV version. My guess is that this is rather minimal, maybe less than an hour or so in total? On the other hand, if everything in the book had been filmed in the same level of detail, W&R on TV might have been something like 100 hours long.
 

Ethan Riley

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W&R runs 1620 without commercials. Exactly 27 hours. The actual airtime with commercials was something like 32 hours.
The individual run times of each chapter will not line up--W&R was not shown in exact 2 hour or 3 hour blocks. Sometimes it would be more like 2 hours, 15 minutes with commercials. I no longer have the dvds...maybe somebody can post the timing of the first 7 episodes--they're all over the place.

Despite a dearth of information on this series, I'm gathering that the missing footage was not deleted--it was simply never used, never put in there to cut out in the first place. It was just some very hasty editing decisions so they could get the thing on air without destroying ABC in the process--another three hours devoted to a money-loser would have been disastrous to them at the time. They'd had to give away precious commercial time during the first 7 chapters because the ratings were lower than they'd thought.

Since that footage was never used, it wasn't handy for them to re-edit it with the missing scenes for syndication or cable (Was it ever in syndication? Did it ever air again? I swear I remember it being on TBS or USA or somewhere, a few years after its debut, but that was 30 years ago. The mind fails...)

I assert that Dan Curtis likely kept the unused footage because of the way he treated Dark Shadows: he tried to keep everything. And 'though I don't know for sure, I have a feeling that footage is well-vaulted and waiting for someone to reassemble it one day.

I don't know who controls those assets, maybe his daughters, maybe the studios. Who knows.
 

Mark-P

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W&R runs 1620 without commercials. Exactly 27 hours. The actual airtime with commercials was something like 32 hours.
I don’t know where you got the 1620, but that is WITH commercials. The runtime without commercials is roughly 1367 or 22 hours 47 minutes. This comes from the runtimes printed on the MPI DVDs. I’m too lazy to stick in each DVD to verify the numbers.

Disc 1 (Part 1) 2 hours 19 minutes
Disc 2 (Part 2) 2 hours 24 minutes
Disc 3 (Parts 3 & 4) 3 hours 23 minutes
Disc 4 (Parts 5 & 6) 3 hours 31 minutes
Disc 5 (Part 7) 2 hours 0 minutes
Disc 6 (Bonus material)
Disc 7 (Part 8) 2 hours 30 minutes
Disc 8 (Part 9) 1 hour 35 minutes
Disc 9 (Part 10) 1 hour 35 minutes
Disc 10 (Part 11) 1 hour 35 minutes
Disc 11 (Part 12) 1 hour 55 minutes
Disc 12 (Bonus material)
 

Super Chief

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I don’t know where you got the 1620, but that is WITH commercials. The runtime without commercials is roughly 1367 or 22 hours 47 minutes. This comes from the runtimes printed on the MPI DVDs. I’m too lazy to stick in each DVD to verify the numbers.

Disc 1 (Part 1) 2 hours 19 minutes
Disc 2 (Part 2) 2 hours 24 minutes
Disc 3 (Parts 3 & 4) 3 hours 23 minutes
Disc 4 (Parts 5 & 6) 3 hours 31 minutes
Disc 5 (Part 7) 2 hours 0 minutes
Disc 6 (Bonus material)
Disc 7 (Part 8) 2 hours 30 minutes
Disc 8 (Part 9) 1 hour 35 minutes
Disc 9 (Part 10) 1 hour 35 minutes
Disc 10 (Part 11) 1 hour 35 minutes
Disc 11 (Part 12) 1 hour 55 minutes
Disc 12 (Bonus material)
So, if it was planned to be 30 hours, with commercials, then there are about 2.5 hours of runtime, without commercials, that were not included. Or maybe the 30 hours was an approximate estimate. I have not seen much on any of that other than that second hand reference to "several hours were cut" from the May 1989 episodes (Parts 8-12). For those of you who read the book, you know that there is more material than what was in the miniseries. A lot of what was not depicted in the miniseries were descriptions of the battles, which were generally shown as narrated wartime footage in black in white. I actually thought that was well done and a good choice. The book is over 1,000 pages long and some of the naval battles were a bit tedious to read, because they were written in such detail by Herman Wouk. He was a fantastic writer but I think that the level of detail for the naval battles would not have held audience interest too well. However, there are a few other scenes from the last few chapters, which correspond to parts 8-12, that were not depicted in the miniseries. For example, when Byron returns to Washington, D.C. to visit his father, the book describes his lunch with his mother (Rhoda), where Janice (Warren's widow) is also present (she was working "on the Hill" and preparing to attend law school, as I recall). That scene is not in the miniseries. Instead, all we see is Rhoda looking out the window of the house when Byron arrives, as Pug and Pamela drive away. That scene would have been just a few minutes long, but it kind of completes the story of Janice and Rhoda, based on the dialogue, and probably should have been in the miniseries.

On the other hand, while the story of Natalie seemed to jump from the day she arrived at Auschwitz (November 1, 1944) to the day she was discovered under the train near Weimar (April 25, 1945), that is how it is in the book, as I recall. In fact, in the book we do not find out about her discovery under the train until Byron receives a letter from his father, which includes a letter from Avram Rabinovitz, with Natalie's statement to the War Refugee Board included. That was when Byron was in Guam and just before he left for Washington, D.C. (in July 1945, as I recall). So, Wouk made that jump too, in fact even more so, in the book. But the book does include Natalie's full statement about what she went through at Auschwitz, and at Ravensbruck (a women-only camp) where she was transferred as the Red Army was about to overrun Auschwitz, and how she ended up on that train, which later was abandoned. None of that is in the miniseries, just Byron reading the statement at Rabinovitz's insistence, and grimacing. Also omitted from the miniseries was Byron asking a French doctor, where Natalie was convalescing, about the scars on her back and the back of her legs from a beating at Auschwitz, and the doctor responding that plastic surgery could fix the physical scars, but not the mental ones (I actually had to look that one up on the Internet because I thought that plastic surgery was a more recent phenomenon, but sure enough, great advances in plastic surgery were made by military doctors in World War II - Wouk really was impeccable in his research and detail!).

I must say that the Theresienstadt and Auschwitz scenes were very faithful to the book, and extremely well done. They really could not have been filmed or depicted any better. They were extremely painful to watch and made us feel the pain at a very personal level. Having read the book before the miniseries, I was really curious how Dan Curtis and Wouk would pull off the Theresienstadt scenes, in particular. The book devotes a lot of pages to Theresienstadt and the miniseries did a terrific job on it. It really corresponded to my imagination, as I was reading the book, which is the best complement I can give.
 

Sam Favate

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I'll finish W&R in the next day or two, and I've really enjoyed it. I can't say I am surprised to learn that ABC struggled with ratings for the last half of the series. It can be hard to watch (and given the subject matter, it should be), and audiences are often reluctant to embrace that which makes them uncomfortable. Having a degree in history, I appreciate the historical detail in the show. There are some segments that stop the show cold, however, such as a lengthy one where Pug and Rhoda talk about their divorce plans.

I was thinking how no one has attempted anything on this grand a scale since W&R, but I think our modern-day equivalent is Game of Thrones. It was filmed on multiple continents, over many years, with a diverse and plentiful cast of characters, telling one long epic story. Given the success of GoT, I think the time is right for another attempt at a sweeping historical drama.
 

Jasper70

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I'll finish W&R in the next day or two, and I've really enjoyed it. I can't say I am surprised to learn that ABC struggled with ratings for the last half of the series. It can be hard to watch (and given the subject matter, it should be), and audiences are often reluctant to embrace that which makes them uncomfortable. Having a degree in history, I appreciate the historical detail in the show. There are some segments that stop the show cold, however, such as a lengthy one where Pug and Rhoda talk about their divorce plans.

I was thinking how no one has attempted anything on this grand a scale since W&R, but I think our modern-day equivalent is Game of Thrones. It was filmed on multiple continents, over many years, with a diverse and plentiful cast of characters, telling one long epic story. Given the success of GoT, I think the time is right for another attempt at a sweeping historical drama.


I agree about the time being right for a great historical drama.
GOT was okay but it was just fantasy. W&R is obviously based on history. Makes much more of an impact for me, knowing these things happened.
We have so much history in this world the list of possibilities is long, very long. Personally I really enjoyed the miniseries of the 70’s and 80’s. Times have changed but streaming would be a great platform for these projects.
 

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