Why SACD is not bigger than it is... (1 Viewer)

[Lee Scoggins]

DVD-A is a lot more "consumer-friendly" than SACD.

I think it is the opposite. With most SACDs, you can play them in a CD player AND you don't have to navigate with a TV like you do some DVDAs. That's much more convenient.

But hey buy what you want, you will be missing a lot of quality software if you only do DVDA.

Late Addition: I just noticed that High Fidelity Review is now listing some 180 different record labels for Super Audio versus 79 for DVD Audio. So it would appear that hirez formats are getting traction.

 

[Felix Martinez]

I think it is the opposite. With most SACDs, you can play them in a CD player AND you don't have to navigate with a TV like you do some DVDAs.

While a monitor is obviously needed to access multi-media content in DVD-A (and I'm assuming future SACD II discs), I cannot think of a DVD-A title that I've had to fire up the projector for to just listen to the audio.

In my recent DVD ETC interview with Craig Eggers of Dolby re: their Surround In Motion technology, we discussed this perception of the necesity of a monitor for DVD-A and that it's in fact a misperception. Dolby's made some great strides in bringing multi-channel audio into cars (and pretty much any listening space outside the home theater) and specifically, they've been working with OEM and after market hardware manufacturers re car DVD-A installations, and he strongly stated that having a monitor is not necessary to listen to DVD-A audio.

Just my $.02,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

While a monitor is obviously needed to access multi-media content in DVD-A (and I'm assuming future SACD II discs), I cannot think of a DVD-A title that I've had to fire up the projector for to just listen to the audio.

Thanks Felix for the comments, but in a number of cases it can be necessary to have a monitor to access all the features or even just the music depending on what type of DVDA player one has.

What do you think the current state of MC Audio is, by the way?

Do you see any signs that it is gaining hold?

I'm glad to see DVDA working on car systems. I have heard that Sony is working on Super Audio car systems as well.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Felix, that may be true for one with a new DVD-audio player, but for those of us playing the DTS, DD or LPCM tracks on DVD-V players that is not the case. At least not with all software.

I don't have a ton of DVD-As, but all the recent releases I've purchased require that I have a monitor hooked up if I wish to change to any track other than the default track. Just off the top of my head, this is true for Beach Boys "Pet Sounds", Donald Fagen "The Nightfly" and Steely Dan "Everything Must Go". As the default track is almost invariably to Dolby Digital, I must turn on my monitor to access the DTS, LPCM, or stereo/mono tracks as the case may be. Craig Eggers is simply wrong, and the misperception seems to be on the part of Dolby Laboratories.

Then again, as the default track is invariably Dolby Digital, perhaps that's why he doesn't see it as a problem?

 

[Phil A]

I've had several DVD-A players in my house. Currently I have a Pioneer Elite DVD-47A universal and a Samsung HD1000 DVD-A/DVD-V player. As with anything in audio, blanket statements that something is never required do not hold up. Every DVD-A player I've had or any of my friends has had (which are a lot but not the whole universe of players) requires a monitor in order to know what one is listening to, including many of those with a group button. Getting sound to come out by knowing about the player is not hard, knowing what you are getting is hard. I've heard a few people indicate they hated the sound of Neil Young's "Harvest" until I found out that they were getting the L&R channel of the multi-channel mix and concluding the disc was terrible which it is not. I've also seen a demo in front of 35+ audiophiles by Linn utilizing the Unidisk prototype player and I can tell you that based on this all unfortunately came away with the impression that DVD-A sucks horribly (vs. SACD and I would bet statistically at least some might have preferred DVD-A sonically if they had a proper demo). It was a similar problem with getting the L&R of the multi-channel mix.

For exactly those reasons, some pre/pros are offering built-in monitors. I saw the new Rotel the other day and will get to hear it in more detail this weekend. I personally solved the problem with a cheap (about $60) 13 inch color TV (with a video input) so I don't have to turn on my projector. I had a 5.5 inch ($25) B&W but some of the menus were difficult to discern. DVD-As are not authored identically.

 

[Justin Lane]

Craig Eggers is simply wrong, and the misperception seems to be on the part of Dolby Laboratories.

I don't understand this statement Rich You put in a DVD-A either in DVD-A or DVD only player and it begins playing in Dolby Digital Multichannel or MLP Multichannel. No monitor is required. Switching between other bonus tracks (outside the DVD-A specs) on a DVD-V player may require a monitor, but the same could be said for accessing other bonus material such as videos, lyrics, photos, etc. As I said above, its a protective measure.


J

 

[Rich Malloy]

I don't understand this statement Rich You put in a DVD-A either in DVD-A or DVD only player and it begins playing in Dolby Digital Multichannel or MLP Multichannel. No monitor is required. Switching between other bonus tracks (outside the DVD-A specs) on a DVD-V player may require a monitor

What's not to understand? If I want to change from the lower resolution Dolby Digital multichannel track to the preferred DTS track (which I always, always do), I have to have a monitor. If I want to access a stereo or mono PCM track, which I also very much like to do, I have to have a monitor. To use these discs requires a monitor. Very simple.

 

[LarryDavenport]

I have a theory as to why SACD and DVDA are not bigger (and I am just pulling this out of my ass so bare with me). It's because a) the labels don't send out SACDs or DVDAs to all the usual reviewers, and b) even if they did not enough of the said reviewers have the set up to play them. Scouring the internet I have found a few placed that review Hi Rez discs (Music Tap, Audio Revolution, and High Fidelity Review as well as SACDinfo, which is user based). Their reviews are few and far between, my guess because they have to buy their own discs.

If anyone knows of a better source for Hi Rez reviews (one's that people like me* can easily understand) please let me know.

* People like me = when you start talking numbers with k or hz at the end I am lost. DOn't give me math, just tell me how it sounds.

 

[Philip Hamm]

I think it is the opposite. With most SACDs, you can play them in a CD player AND you don't have to navigate with a TV like you do some DVDAs. That's much more convenient.

I think you're completely missing my point and the point of the whole thread.

I agree that SACD could be construed as being easier to use because you don't need a monitor. You could argue that it is more audiophile-friendly than DVD-A for that reason. I would disagree, but it's beside the point.

The point is this:

Joe Normal, who happens to be a Pink Floyd fan, has a $300 DVD surround sound system that he got at Wal*Mart (or a $1000 system from Best Buy). When Joe picks up a hybrid SACD, there's a good chance that it won't even play on his system. And if it does, he'll only get the CD stereo, not the surround sound promised on the box. Maybe he'll be smart enough to turn on one of his "Surround" DSP modes to hear simulated surround sound and think that's the "real thing". As far as the non-audiophile, the format is confusing and diffult. If Joe Normal was lucky enough to get a Sony Dream system, he can play the SACDs, but for some reason he won't get those neato menus that he's gotten used to. If not, he can't get surround without spending mucho $$$ on new hardware.

Same Joe Normal buys a DVD-A if he likes the artist. He knows very well that it's not a CD because the case has the easily recognizable and ubiquitous DVD logo. No matter what DVD system he's using, he'll get true surround sound that won't be some DSP mode.

See what I mean? SACD is not consumer friendly at all, I've used real examples from the referenced SACD thread at the Pink Floyd web site. I'd be willing to bet that if I found a Metallica message board thread discussing the "Black Album" DVD-Audio disc there would not be nearly as much confusion.

Rich Malloy, FYI, when you use DVD-Audio on a DVD-Video player, you are not using DVD-Audio. It is DVD-Video you are using. Your concern about not being able to change the audio channel are irrelevant since that's never been a claim of DVD-Video. Besides, a click on the "Audio" button from your remote should do the trick.

 

[Felix Martinez]

Felix, that may be true for one with a new DVD-audio player, but for those of us playing the DTS, DD or LPCM tracks on DVD-V players that is not the case. At least not with all software...Craig Eggers is simply wrong, and the misperception seems to be on the part of Dolby Laboratories.

DVD-V content may require a monitor to navigate, but my comment was addressing Lee's discussion of SACD/DVD-A. On the DVD-A side I don't believe I've ever had to use a monitor to just listen to hi-rez DVD-A tracks, but you're right about the DVD-V side. Craig in my article was also speaking about DVD-A.

Cheers,

 

[Felix Martinez]

* People like me = when you start talking numbers with k or hz at the end I am lost. DOn't give me math, just tell me how it sounds.

My reviews at DVDAngle have a bit of both. My DVD ETC. reviews are shorter, but I try to provide as much info as possible. It's a fine line...

Cheers,

 

[Brian-W]

Don't we have these debates about once a month?

 

[Rich Malloy]

Rich Malloy, FYI, when you use DVD-Audio on a DVD-Video player, you are not using DVD-Audio. It is DVD-Video you are using. Your concern about not being able to change the audio channel are irrelevant since that's never been a claim of DVD-Video. Besides, a click on the "Audio" button from your remote should do the trick.

Let me be clear: a click on the "audio" button does not change tracks on any DVD-A disc I have. It does absolutely nothing. It's disabled. In order to change tracks, I have to access the menu pages (with a monitor, naturally).

And I'm perplexed by your assertion that this is all "irrelevant" because it's never been a a "claim of DVD-Video". I'm only suggesting that this would be a very welcome feature, whether anyone's ever claimed to have offered it or not.

But when Craig Eggers says I don't need a monitor to navigate the "new" discs, I feel I must counter that statement. I do need a monitor. It's true that I can't playback the MLP-encoded tracks, that I'm limited to listening to the DTS, Dolby Digital, LPCM, and non-MLP 24/96 tracks (like the stereo and mono ones on the Beach Boys album). But aren't these valid tracks? Aren't they on the disc for a reason? Don't they expect or hope that someone is listening to them? Are you suggesting that those of us without MLP-decoders look elsewhere, that the format isn't intended for our use? That our concerns are irrelevant?

Obviously, I disagree with this notion, as I suspect you do. And while this is an aside to the discussion we've been having, I'd like to make a secondary point that I think is significant: the ability to playback DVD-A discs on DVD-video players is everybit as important to the format as the ability to playback SACDs on CD players.

I look at it like this: the DTS, Dolby Digital and LPCM tracks on DVD-A discs are what makes this format a hybrid one. Yes, it's true that it won't play in most cars, boomboxes, or portables, but it's also true that the DVD-video player is ubiquitous in homes. Nearly everyone I know has one. I've also noticed that DVD-video players have replaced CD players in many homes, as most people at some point realize that DVD players will play CDs (though some players without dual or dual-focusing lenses cannot read CD-Rs). I'd conjecture that the DVD player is perhaps the primary digital transport device in most homes in the US. That might be overstating it, but I'm sure you'll agree that the market penetration is very significant, and undeniably extraordinary for such a short period of time.

This means that the majority of potential consumers are already setup to enjoy DVD-A discs in their homes, only not the MLP-encoded tracks. These are the very mainstream customer base that the format so covets!

Whether or not anyone's ever claimed to support this or that feature, or make this or that easy-to-use and consumer friendly for such consumers is irrelevant. What's relevant is that these consumers are important to the success of the format. Being aware of and responsive to their issues would seem to be very much in the interest of the format. I'll say it again: over 39,000 registered members of this forum, all of whom presumably own DVD players, and here we are, the same 15-20 of us, the only ones talking about it. Why can't we get this format airborn?

 

[Lewis Besze]

I have no idea what you are saying here...

......basically it means since we don't have conclusive data,that, if the public buys the hardware like DVD-A/V players or SACD/DVD players for specific Hi-rez playback or strictly for video. Hope that helps!

 

[Darryl]

Besides, a click on the "Audio" button from your remote should do the trick [to switch audio formats].

Even in DVD-A mode, that doesn't work for all players nor for all discs. I tried it just this morning with the new $180 Pioneer while listening to the multichannel MLP version of Yes, Fragile. Hitting the Audio button did absolutely nothing. To listen to the stereo version I had to navigate the menus.

Another beef I have is that the track numbers don't always match up with the song number. Want to listen to song 4? Hitting 4-Enter may or may not take you to the right song, depending on the disc.

I should mention that I really like DVD-A. I'm very happy with the sound, and I like having the option to see bonus material. I just wish there were a "listening only" mode that predictably and consistently acted more like a traditional CD, but with an easy, predicatable, consistent way to switch between available audio formats.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Two of my rave reviews in the mag have been for Channel Classics' La Stravaganza multi-channel hybrid SACD (September issue) and AIX Records' brand new Laurence Juber: Guitar Noir DVD-A (along with an interview with Mark Waldrep, Ph.D. of AIX for the October issue). Both titles are amazing!

I have also heard both and I second Felix recommendation-two standouts for each format.

Lewis, check out the Steve Hoffman forum for clues on which DSOTMs are from Crest.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I'll say it again: over 39,000 registered members of this forum, all of whom presumably own DVD players, and here we are, the same 15-20 of us, the only ones talking about it. Why can't we get this format airborn?

That's an interesting observation Rich. There seem to be a few big fans in either format that matter most-the so-called early adopters. But to be honest, SACD has been attracting more sales, more titles and more record labels than DVDA, so Super Audio must be doing something right.

I suspect what they are doing right is threefold:

1. Using "case studies" of best sellers like DSOTM and the Stones Series to attract more artists.

Witness Sting, Bob Dylan, Elton John, and Rush.

2. Working the professional industry angle strongly.

Witness the more prestigious studios almost to every major one that have signed and voted with checkbook by buying DSD workstations. Witness the now approaching a dozen mfrs of DSD workstations offering new tools.

3. Working with retailers to differentiate hirez product in both hardware and software terms.

Witness new product offerings from Sony-both low cost and high end. Witness cheap "universal chips" from LSI. Witness less expensive universals from Pioneer and Denon.

Witness the new marketing campaign at Best Buy and the large penetration of high end audio salons where hirez remains one of the best sellers. Much work remains to be done, but this is a respectable effort in a difficult economy.

 

[Felix Martinez]

I do need a monitor. It's true that I can't playback the MLP-encoded tracks, that I'm limited to listening to the DTS, Dolby Digital, LPCM, and non-MLP 24/96 tracks (like the stereo and mono ones on the Beach Boys album). But aren't these valid tracks?

While my comments referenced the playing of the hi-res DVD-Audio content without monitors, I agree with you that DVD-Video content (Dolby Digital, DTS, etc.) is absolutely valid, but again, DVD-Video, by definition, was never meant to be a video-free - even if you are playing the disc just for the audio.

Cheers,

 

[Philip Hamm]

I tried playing it in my DVD player, which will pretty much play anything you shove into it, and it doesn't work, because you need one of those new-fangled SACD players for an extra 200 bucks.

It is my understanding that non-SACD DVD players often choke on hybrid SACDs. It appears that my understanding is borne out by the Pink Floyd fans. I have 5 DVD players in my house (yes I'm crazy) I should see how many of them work with the hybrid disc just for fun.

 

[Felix Martinez]

I just wish there were a "listening only" mode that predictably and consistently acted more like a traditional CD, but with an easy, predicatable, consistent way to switch between available audio formats.

Again, I never fire up my projector in DVD-A mode unless I want to. The only difference "listening mode"-wise between SACD and DVD-A is that an SACD disc spins up faster, which is understandable as it has a streamlined content structure unencumbered by complex multimedia.

Cheers,