Why SACD is not bigger than it is... (1 Viewer)

[Lee Scoggins]

Because if that market research you don't want to believe (if it exists) may show them that the discs are going to sell whether they go to the added expense of an SACD layer.

I do agree with your logic-Sony and Philips have a big investment in DSD and SACD, they will keep putting out titles and signing up new labels to protect their royalty revenue and differentiate their product lineup.

 

[ElevSkyMovie]

Lee,

What info have you heard about Rush on SACD? I am a big Rush fan and haven't heard anything. I have been thinking of buying the remasters, but if SACDs are coming out, I'll wait.

Do you know if they will be MC and/or hybrid?

Thanks.

 

[Phil A]

Kyle, a bunch of Rush albums have been announced by Universal with a projected October date: http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=14519011

 

[Mike Broadman]

we need everybody's participation, especially the mass consumers (MC), to make hi-rez become a viable -- and affordable -- part of our home entertainment...

It already is. We don't need "MCs," and it's a waste of time and effort to market to them for his particular technology.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Kyle,

What Phil A said.

Yet many SACD advocates attribute the high sales of these discs due to the SACD layer

Arguably the biggest proponent on the HTF is me and I have never said the high sales were the result of an audiophile minority buying the discs. In fact, I have repeatedly said is (1) we can't know the breakout given that SoundScan does not have a process for checking and (2) it does not really matter as long as big titles proliferate. And we have seen many big announcements (like Rush ) that strongly indicate many big titles. Things will only get better as SACD replication facilities lower replication costs. In short we don't know if 30K, 60K or 90K units were sold of DSOTM due to audiophiles, rabid Pink Floyd fans, or whatnot. I think it's a fair assumption that tens of thousands of units were sold due to the great reviews in TAS, Stereophile, Guide to Home Theater, Sound & Vision, etc. Again, though, Sony having the ability to credibly say that the Rolling Stones was a hybrid that sold 2 million certainly is a great story to tell the Elton Johns and Beatles out there.

I am an avid reader of Audio Asylum and I don't recall anyone making predictions that a large number of DSOTM or other title was due purely or mostly to SACD layer, just that it helped quite a bit.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Tons of titles... discs with multiple layers

We have tons of titles out (1200+) and many more coming and at an increasing rate.

SACDs have both a stereo layer and multi-channel layer already and most of the ones sold include a redbook layer. As of a month ago, a large portion of existing titles were hybrid according to Stephen Best at sacdinfo.com.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Where are the non-hybrid sales numbers? That is the most meaningful indicator as to the demand for the SACD format.

No its not Michael and I will tell you why. The biggest sellers have been hybrids like DSOTM and the Stones. In the hybrid case you just can't tell. You can tell what number Sony thinks is important because at the AES and Home Entertainment shows, David Kawakami gives a speech that usually discusses the following four stats:

1. Million+ copies of Stones discs.
2. Number of Record Labels and latest to sign on.
3. Number of new editing workstations announced that do DSD in native domain.
4. Number of brand name studios using DSD equipment and having full DSD capability.

That's what matters to Sony and Philips and the nearly 200 labels supporting the format.

Sony is just guilty of being smart. They prefer to talk about great bands like Floyd signing on than confuse people with talk about the split between hybrid and non-hybrid sales.

I will tell you this...the audiophile labels are selling a ton whether it be Chesky or Analog Productions. That's an important indicator of grass roots success.

You guys can continue to think of Super Audio as a limited niche product for only audiophiles but I continue to see very strong evidence that the industry is moving to it and DVDA. The plethora of new hardware and software underscores my argument.

Go listen to a good SACD and tell me life's not good.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Don't think so? When is the last time Sony released a new SACD player? If they want it to succeed, why don't they include SACD playback on every new home DVD player and CD player? Why doesn't the Playstation 2 play SACDs?

Rob,

One reason I defend the format is that I strongly believe in the clarity of its sonics and its underlying math process, is somewhat similar to what I do in my day job building risk models.

The other reason is lack of informed argument always against Sony. Look at your statement above. Sony has just released new players in the past two months and has announced a new flagship model coming out in September. While I have often said I would like more marketing by Sony, I honestly think they are doing a lot. But it takes many man days to work the retailers, record labels, and recording studios. And DSD requires more of a challenge to overcome inertia since it is not a PCM add-on like DVDA. Fortunately, they are making real progress. They have convinced nearly 200 labels I am told to offer their bigger albums on the format.

 

[Frank_S]

I for one would be quite happy if SACD and DVD Audio remain niche formats for years to come. The second these two formats become mainstream you can kiss quality goodbye.

Yeah, those cracked crest discs really demonstrate the highest quality in manufacturing.

 

[Greg Johnson]

I was speaking of the mastering process which results in a great sounding product. Not the manufacturing process.
I own 2 titles from Crest which have developed small cracks. So I'm very unhappy about the situation also.

 

[Frank_S]

I was speaking of the mastering process which results in a great sounding product. Not the manufacturing process.

Point taken Greg. All the mastering in the world won't fix those cracked discs though.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Yeah, those cracked crest discs really demonstrate the highest quality in manufacturing.

Point taken, but the discs in question come from one plant. Sony and others have been doing good work. Sony and others do need to stop Crest' license if there remains a cracking problem. This is the sort of thing that can really harm a new media format.

Greg and Frank, if any of you have digital photos of the cracks from recent pressings, please attach and I will see that some bigshots in the industry see them and link to the HTF.

Thanks!

 

[Frank_S]

This is the sort of thing that can really harm a new media format.

I agree Lee, this is something that needs to be acknowledged by Sony, have they admitted that there is a problem yet? I don't believe they have since I keep reading about cracked discs and consumers being screwed because of the return policy of the store, IE some discs don't crack within the store's return policy deadline.

 

[Darryl]

Where are the non-hybrid sales numbers? That is the most meaningful indicator as to the demand for the SACD format.

I don't think that's entirely true. Every music disc I have purchased in the past six months has either been a DVD-A or a hybrid SACD. I can only think of two exceptions. I haven't bought any single layer SACDs. Why? Because I didn't have a SACD player until just last week. I wanted to support the hi-res formats but didn't have the cash to buy one of the more expensive players. I'm making a tiny one-man statement by not purchasing straight redbook, but I wasn't purchasing single layer SACDs either since I couldn't listen to them. I'm more in favor of the hybrid format anyway since I can play them in my car. I wish DVD-A could do that (I hate the flipper idea). I'm living proof that there are people who don't buy single layer SACD but who do buy hybrids specifically for the SACD layer. For that reason, single layer sales numbers don't necessarily tell you much.

That said, I agree with those people saying that the masses don't care about sound quality. A while back I posted my co-workers opinions here; your average Joe is probably even less likely than my co-workers to buy into hi-res music.

 

[Rich Malloy]

And I've started buying DVD-As, despite the fact that I can't play the hi-rez, MLP-encoded tracks. Fortunately, like hybrid SACDs with regular ol' CD players (and DVD players, for that matter), these DVD-A discs are backwards-compatible with regular ol' DVD-video players.

And I certainly hope and expect my purchases "count" when it comes time for Warner, et al., to consider the viability of the DVD-A format, just as I hope the sales of all hybrid discs "count" when it comes to considering the viability of SACD. And I suspect they do. Sussing out motives can be important from a marketing perspective, and I hope it's clear that backwards-compatibility is a good thing for both formats.

 

[Lewis Besze]

1. Million+ copies of Stones discs.2. Number of Record Labels and latest to sign on.
3. Number of new editing workstations announced that do DSD in native domain.
4. Number of brand name studios using DSD equipment and having full DSD capability.That's what matters to Sony and Philips and the nearly 200 labels supporting the format.

All those are very irrelevant to the buying public even for some who buys hi-rez releases like me.
Also what Sony-Philips wants is not the question,but what the labels they have "lured" in if they would be ran by half competent people.The biggest sellers are hybrid doesn't that tell you something?

BTW Lee don't you think you preaching to the choir here,those misguided Pink Floyd fans could use your insight and expertise on the subject of SACD.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

That said, I agree with those people saying that the masses don't care about sound quality.

Let's assume for a minute this is true, even though I feel otherwise. If the record industry starts making all future DVD players include a bundled DVDA/SACD decoding chip (Panasonic I think has said 80% of new players have DVDA and we posted the LSI story) as well as great title selection, could we not expect to see hirez widen to a much larger audience? I think its very possible...

 

[Lewis Besze]

Let's assume for a minute this is true, even though I feel otherwise. If the record industry starts making all future DVD players include a bundled DVDA/SACD decoding chip (Panasonic I think has said 80% of new players have DVDA and we posted the LSI story) as well as great title selection, could we not expect to see hirez widen to a much larger audience? I think its very possible..

The possibility is there will the public takes the initiative,remains to be seen.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

The possibility is there will the public takes the initiative,remains to be seen.

I have no idea what you are saying here...

 

[Philip Hamm]

Wow, we've really veered off topic here.

No comments on the Pink Floyd fan message board (which BTW is a moderated message board like this, NOT a newsgroup)?

I think the messages there do indeed dramatically underscore the problems with SACD and why it will probably fail with the general public. DVD-A is a lot more "consumer-friendly" than SACD.