Why Is It With Receivers..... (1 Viewer)

[Jeremy_R]

Forget about the absolute volume. Switch the receiver to use relative volumes. You will see that 50 (absolute) on the receiver is actually -32 (relative). I have found that -20 to -10 are good for watching movies. Most theaters will have a volume equal to 0 on your receivers volume.

If you are still having problems hearing dialog you could try putting late night mode on high. I have done this for some really poorly authored DVDs and it has really helped.

 

[Pat_TL]

Jeremy,

I was talking about the "Speaker Calibration" levels in the Input Setup menu...those are jacked to "+6" for all channels except the center, which is on "+9"....where can I change the Late Night Mode to High? I didnt even realize this was a feature....I have the Dynamic Compression set to OFF on my DVD player; where are the controls for the Late Night functions on my TX-SR600?

 

[Jeremy_R]

If your 600 is like my 601 this feature is available during a dolby digital feed. You can set it on by selecting audio adjust on the receiver while watching a movie in dolby digital.

It will make the action scenes less loud. When I use late night mode I crank my receiver up to -5 or sometimes even 0.

 

[Pat_TL]

Oh, well, I dont really want the action sequences to be less loud....I would really like the dialogue to be louder AMONGST the action and Im wondering why it takes a volume level of "50" or higher on this model receiver to heat a soundtrack up....and I was trying to get information from other owners if this was normal or not....

 

[Jeremy_R]

It is totally normal. It bothered me at first too. It is the way these high current receivers were designed.

Now I actually prefer it to my other receiver because with my other receiver it is harder to get a softer sound. I have an old JVC receiver setup for 2 channel music and if you get it past 1/4 volume it is uncomfortably loud. Any little bump of the volume control and the volume goes up too quickly.

Don't think that your receiver is weak. The volume is there. Turn your receiver up to 82 while watching a movie if you don't believe me. :p)

 

[Pat_TL]

Oh I believe you that the power is there----I never got anywhere near 82 on the volume----but what I am annoyed about is that 82 means there is only so much more left to go to maximum....and why should a receiver provide power like that? Why should you almost need to max out the system in order to get audio out of it? In my view, you should be rocking at much lower volume levels with headroom to spare....but I guess thats why its an 80 watts x 6 receiver.....

 

[Mort Corey]

Why would you want to.....it's just making you crazy and taking away from your enjoyment It doesn't matter what the number is so long as the speakers aren't distorting or the amp clipping. My old analog Denon Pro Logic receiver was pretty darn loud with the volume level at about 40%. My new Denon Dolby Digital receiver produces the same volume levels but the reference number is on the other side of 50%. Still more headroom than I'll ever need, it's just a matter of where the "dial" is positioned. Crank that sucker up to number 75 or 80 and put a sticker on the display that says 50 and relax and enjoy the ride.

Mort

 

[Pat_TL]

LOL....thanks Mort.......

 

[Pat_TL]

Hey Fellas,

Another question I have which I was trying to get answered in a separate thread, but maybe it would apply here better....do any of you think adding an EQ is necessary or recommended for "punching up" the sound in a 5.1 system? Is there a way, aside from getting separates, to run an EQ through a receiver when playing DD and DTS sources? Would this even make sense to do?

 

[Pat_TL]

"You didn’t mention what kind of speakers you have, or how much power your receiver has, but if your speakers are inefficient it will require more amplifier power and higher volume levels to run them."


Sorry; the speakers are Polks, all around, larger bookshelves on stands for the mains, a center on top of the wall unit above the TV, and two smaller bookshelves for the surrounds on stands...all from the same family from Polk; the models slip my mind right now....

The receiver puts out 80 watts x 6......

 

[Mort Corey]

The Polk bookshelf speakers are pretty efficient so you've got plenty of power. Forget the equalizer along with the numbers on your volume dial and enjoy your system. I don't think you mentioned a subwoofer....if you don't have one, that's where I'd spend the money.

I wondered the same thing when I first got my Denon 3805. Minus 10 on the volume control for most DD/DTS movies and the top number being plus 20.....let it go....it doesn't matter I turned to volume up to "reference" level (zero) ONCE......eh? what'd ya say? speak up!

Mort

 

[Pat_TL]

Mort....sorry...yes I also have a 10" Polk self powered sub....sorry I didnt mention that...

 

[DerrikW]

Pat,

Don't worry about what the volume says, turn it up til it's loud enough for you and call it good. Pay no attention to what the receiver says.

You said it annoys you that you have to turn it up so high to get it loud, and you don't like being that close to max vol. Trust me, once you get up in the 70's or 80's, every little number you go up is gonna get significantly louder. Try 82 once, if that's not enough, turn it up to 87, you'll see what I mean.

 

[Pat_TL]

Thanks a million Derrek!

 

[Bill Leber]

It's definately a function of the DVDs, not the reciever. In reality, an explosion or gunshot is much louder than someone talking, so that's how they do the sound for films. If it is the change in volume bothering you, use the night time mode as previously pointed out and turn up the volume.

CDs are louder because they don't have as wide a dynamic range.

 

[Pat_TL]

Thank you for that explanation, Bill.

 

[StephenL]

Work in progress. Corrections and additional information welcome.

I have to increase the volume control on my new receiver to get a normal listening level compared with my old receiver. Does this mean that my new receiver is defective or lacking in power?

Not necessarily. It probably just means that the calibrated reference level of your new receiver is at a higher point on the master volume scale. First, make sure that your receiver's dynamic range compression is turned off.

The scale of numerical values that indicates the master volume setting may vary depending on manufacturer and model. The following examples are not universal, but are typical of many high-end receivers.

Description of Master volume scale from the manuals of several receiver manufacturers:

Denon

The volume can be adjusted within the range of -80 to 0 to 18 dB, in steps of 0.5 dB. However, if the volume for any channel is set at +0.5 dB or greater, the volume cannot be adjusted up to 18 dB. In this case the maximum volume adjustment range is "18 dB - (Maximum value of channel level)".

Marantz

The volume can be adjusted within the range of - (infinity) to 18 dB, in steps of 1 dB. However, if the volume for any channel is set at +1 dB or greater, the volume cannot be adjusted up to 18 dB. In this case the maximum volume adjustment range is "18 dB - Maximum value of channel level."

Onkyo/Integra

You can choose from two ways of displaying the volume setting on screen.

Absolute: This displays the volume with a minimum of min (0) for no sound and a maximum of max (100). As a reference, the volume setting of Ref (82) is used as the 0-decibel for the relative display method.

Relative: This displays the volume as a decibel value on a scale with a designated reference point that is displayed as 0, which equals the volume setting of 82 for the absolute display method. With this display method, the minimum value is -(infinity), the next highest is -81, and the maximum value
is +18.

The relative master master volume display may seem unusual if you are accustomed to a receiver that displays the master volume on an absolute scale (1-100, for example) instead of a scale relative to 0 dB. It may also seem unusual if you are accustomed to a receiver that plays loud with the master volume at a much lower setting. A receiver that requires a higher master volume setting to produce the same power output may lead you to conclude that the receiver is less powerful, but that's not necessarily true. You'll probably find that your new receiver has a more usable range of volume control.

Why is 0 dB near the high end of the volume scale on some receivers and processors?

In digital recording, 0 dBFS (decibels full scale) is the peak level that can be recorded before digital clipping or overload occurs. Full scale is the level at which the binary number describing the signal is 1's in all places; it can't get any larger. All other measurements expressed in terms of dBFS will always be less than 0 dB (negative numbers). 0 dBFS is a logical reference for full scale because it can be used for any digital format regardless of the number of bits used to represent the signal. On some receivers and processors, the master volume level of 0 dB corresponds with the 0 dBFS level in Dolby Digital recordings.
http://www.jimprice.com/prosound/db.htm

If 0 dB is the maximum level before digital clipping or overload in a digital soundtrack, why does the master volume control go above 0 dB on some receivers and processors?

It's possible play back a digital soundtrack above the 0 dB reference level without clipping provided your amplifiers and speakers are capable. However, the dynamic range (the difference between the loudest peak and the softest level) will remain the same.

What is reference level?

Dolby or THX reference level is the volume level (sound pressure level) used in theaters for movie presentations (although this level is sometimes turned down). Digital formats are adjusted in the theater so that a digital signal level of -20 dBFS (20 dB below the 0 dB full scale level) will produce a sound pressure level of 85 dB at a distance two-thirds back in the theater. This allows a full-scale level of 105 dB per channel at the same distance.
http://www.audiovideo101.com/diction...-reference.asp
http://www.audiovideo101.com/diction...-reference.asp
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/cinema/cinedsgn.pdf

Some of the more sophisticated receivers and processors for home use (including those that are THX certified) provide individual speaker level calibration with the master volume at a designated, preset reference level corresponding with 0 dBFS. These receivers and processors automatically set the master volume to the reference level when the individual speaker levels are calibrated. This reference level is typically displayed as 0 dB on the master volume.

Why should speaker levels be calibrated relative to reference level?

Accurate calibration relative to 0 dBFS (the full-scale reference level) ensures that the sound pressure level produced by a sound system is the level intended by the sound engineer when the film's audio was mixed, regardless of whether the sound system is in a studio, commercial theater or home theater.

How loud is reference level?

Dolby Digital soundtracks have a dynamic range (the difference between the loudest peak and the softest level) of 105 dB for each channel. All recording levels are referenced to the 0 dBFS peak, so the minimum level in a Dolby Digital soundtrack is -105 dBFS. When a speaker receives a 0 dB full-scale signal from a Dolby Digital soundtrack, the sound pressure level should be 105 dB from each full-range channel and 115 dB from the Low-Frequency Effects channel. The ability to actually achieve the peak SPL in your home theater depends on the speakers, amplifiers and room.

If the 0 dB reference level corresponds with an SPL of 105 dB, isn't reference level too loud for normal listening?

Remember that 105 dB is the potential peak SPL at 0 dBFS (full-scale reference level). Dialog is typically well below the full-scale level. But many people find that the 0 dB reference level is too loud for most soundtracks. You can always reduce the master volume to provide a comfortable SPL.

What is dialog normalization?

The Dolby Digital recommended target level for dialog is -31 dBFS Leq(A), which is an output level 31 dB below 0 dB full-scale digital output, averaged over time using the equivalent loudness method. In order to maintain volume level consistency, Dolby Digital soundtracks contain a dialog level parameter (also known as dialogue normalization or dialnorm), which the decoder uses to automatically attenuate soundtracks that have a dialog level greater than -31 dBFS. The dialog level parameter is part of the soundtrack's metadata, which is data embedded in the digital audio data stream when the soundtrack is encoded. The scale used in the dialogue level setting ranges from -1 to -31 dB, in increments of 1 dB, where -31 dB represents no level shift. The Dolby Digital decoder adds the dialog level parameter to 31 dB to obtain the value of the level shift. For example, if a film has a dialogue level of -27 dBFS Leq(A), the sound engineer would include that dialog level parameter in the soundtrack's metadata. Your Dolby Digital decoder would add the -27 dB dialog level parameter to 31 dB resulting in a level shift of 4 dB. Your decoder would automatically reduce the volume by 4 dB. For dialog normalization to work as intended, the sound engineer must provide an accurate dialog level parameter in the metadata when the soundtrack is encoded.
http://www.hifi-writer.com/he/dictio...gnormalization
http://www.dolby.com/metadata/pa.st.0102.MDGuide.pdf
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec0.../surround5.asp
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...on-6-2000.html
http://www.tweakers.net/nieuws/18061
http://www.globaldisc.com/Dolby/DDNorm.html
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...12.10.03.shtml
http://etvcookbook.org/glossary/#D
http://etvcookbook.org/audio/dialnorm.html
http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/optimode/page3.html

How do I calibrate my home theater system at reference level?

Some receivers and processors (including those that are THX certified) have an internally generated test signal (pink noise) that is accurately calibrated relative to the 0 dB reference level. The internally generated pink noise in THX certified home equipment has a value of -30 dBFS. The Sound Pressure Level (SPL) that should correspond with the -30 dBFS test signal is 75 dB because the 0 dB full scale reference level corresponds with a peak SPL of 105 dB, and 105 dB - 30 dB = 75 dB. The user adjusts the individual speaker levels by observing a sound pressure level meter at the listening position so that each speaker produces 75 dBc (C-weighting, slow response) SPL with the internally generated pink noise and the master volume at the reference level of 0 dB.

Professional processors have a test signal with a value of -20 dBFS, so commercial surround sound systems are calibrated to 85 dBc SPL. Note that correctly calibrated home and professional systems will play identical soundtracks at the same SPL.
If your receiver or processor doesn’t have a designated point on the master volume scale that corresponds with the 0 dBFS reference level, and a test signal that is accurately calibrated relative to that level, you can use test signals from a DVD such as Avia or Video Essentials and note the level on the master volume that corresponds with the calibrated level. The most important objective when calibrating your receiver or processor is to make sure all speakers have the same output measure at the listening position.

How does room size, speaker sensitivity and speaker distance affect reference level?

Calibrating the individual speaker levels with the master volume at the 0 dB reference level eliminates variations due to speaker sensitivity, room size and distance between the listener and speakers. All systems that are properly calibrated at reference level will play the same soundtracks at the same SPL when the master volume is at 0 dB, provided the amplifiers have enough power and the speakers are capable of achieving the required SPL. There is no need to adjust the master volume to compensate for variations in speaker sensitivity and distance.

For example, consider the following two home theater systems:

The first is playing a Dolby Digital soundtrack at reference level (master volume at 0 dB) in a 2,000 cubic foot room with the listener 10 feet from speakers with relatively high sensitivity.

The second is playing the same Dolby Digital soundtrack at reference level (master volume at 0 dB) in a 4,000 cubic foot room with the listener 20 feet from speakers with relatively low sensitivity.

The two systems will produce the same SPL, provided both are properly calibrated, the amplifiers have enough power, and the speakers are capable of achieving the required SPL.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/archive/index.php4/t-2939


Related topics:
http://www.jimprice.com/prosound/db.htm

http://www.usa.denon.com/support/faqs_ht.asp#Q7

http://www.audiovideo101.com/diction...-reference.asp

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...on-6-2000.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...pril-2000.html

http://resmagonline.com/articles/pub...ticle_93.shtml

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/exper.../avia_a2z.html

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/B/Bel.htm

http://www.free-definition.com/Bel.html

http://hometheaterhifi.com/forum/arc....php/t-61.html