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Why I think BluRay may be the future for CD-based music and HD video content...

Discussion in 'Music' started by Lee Scoggins, Mar 15, 2004.

  1. Phil A

    Phil A Premium
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    Yes Lee that is fine. The problem is that many avg. consumers think music is already over-priced. Universal lowering their CD prices is great and more of that is needed for both CDs and hi-rez. The avg. consumer may care about quality but only to a point and is much more concerned with cost of the software. So there needs to be some type of trade-off of quality vs. price for something to make it in the marketplace.

    There also needs to be more available software. Audiophile are not the majority nor are semi-geriatric audiophiles like me who love back catalog releases while drinking their Geritol but that won't cut it for the mainstream.

    The average consumer is also lost by new technology and what is needed to hook it up to hear it. Many don't have a clue on how to go into each player's set-up menu to adjust for levels (let alone have access to or own an SPL meter), type of TV, tweak each DVD player for their display device, etc. If I end up having a conversation even with mildly knowledgeable people about the subject, they look at me as if I just stepped off a space ship. I just exchanged E-Mails with a couple of such people who have decent systems and are lost and when my friend was working on a regular basis (up until last Sept.) at the high end shop I helped with probably around 250 installs over almost a 6-yr. period and I can't tell you how many people with really good and expensive stuff are totally lost.

    It is also easy to see from this thread that at least other people besides myself are getting fed-up with the whole hi-rez situation and the cos. lack of commitment to get software to us at good prices. I'd venture to say that the CD sound I can get out of my system is better than the vast majority of SACD sound produced on most peoples systems (I've heard many things) and I'm pretty much at the point if I have a good quality CD, unless it is something I absolutely love, I feel no need to re-buy it on hi-rez. I held off buying 'Rock N Roll' since I knew it was coming to SACD. Hi-rez needs to get the rest of the good back catalog stuff out (e.g. the Beatles, the Doors, Van Morrison, Billy Joel, Sprinsteen, etc. you name it) and start getting current releases and new artist out the door on a regular basis otherwise they will remain a niche market at best.
     
  2. Marc Colella

    Marc Colella Well-Known Member

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    This is funny.

    Now we have a format war debate on 2 formats that really aren't (for the most part) available yet. [​IMG]
    I'm as guilty as everyone else.

    I'm happy with DVD for my films and CD/MP3 for my music.

    Time to get back to enjoying the art and just forget the technology. Life's too short.
     
  3. John Kotches

    John Kotches Well-Known Member

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    Lee,

    We've gone over this before, and Marc Collela provided the pointers. That was in the HD-DVD discussion I believe.

    Frankly it blows my mind that Blu-Ray has higher bandwidth and storage capacity advantages, and they're chosing to waste it on MPEG-2.

    I don't want HDTV quality, or D-VHS quality -- I want better and that means either MPEG-4/H.264 or WM9/VC-9.



    Cheers,
     
  4. Michael St. Clair

    Michael St. Clair Well-Known Member

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    Kind of like building a killer sports car, overengineered with perfect balance and handling, and offering nothing but a (very good) four-cylinder engine. [​IMG] At least offer a six banger or a turbo. [​IMG]
     
  5. Dan Hitchman

    Dan Hitchman Well-Known Member

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    Sony keeps using the lines that we don't need "more" video compression and that's why it's going with MPEG-2. I don't think that's the reason behind it at all. It all has to do with royalties and the billions they can generate over the life of a successful product. They have a vested interest in MPEG-2 because of patents, whereas they do not with WM HD (VC-9 or Corona as it's also called).

    If VC-9 is tweeked and they can get the algorithms fixed (there are issues, especially of color banding when they downconvert 10 bit masters to 8 bit-- MS engineers have stated as much and are working on a solution; at least they say they are) then I'd bet you given the exact same bitrates, MPEG-2 and VC-9, VC-9 would blow away MPEG-2.

    In the latest DVD Forum picture quality tests, I've heard that VC-9 came out on top. That doesn't necessarily mean the specifications board will choose that codec since there are the sticky situations with royalties and politics that always stink up the proceedings.

    Furthermore, if MPEG-2 is used on either blue laser format then a lot of storage capacity will be wasted and there wouldn't be room to add high resolution PCM, multi-channel soundtracks into the mix.
     
  6. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Well-Known Member

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    The problem is the bias toward Toshiba in the DVD Forum. They are not an independent party here.
     
  7. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Well-Known Member

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    Please keep in mind that I am not arguing that BluRay is the best technology, just that as of now the supporting companies control a VAST majority of the CE and PC market so adoption is probably more likely. I tried to make that clear in my first post.

    Still, I have yet to see a good side by side comparison of the best each format (MPEG2, MPEG4, VC9) has to offer.

    If anyone knows of some technical and visual examples of this, please provide the links. Thanks. [​IMG]
     
  8. Michael St. Clair

    Michael St. Clair Well-Known Member

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    The studios are more powerful than the CE companies in terms of deciding what video formats live or die.

    Disney and Warner are strongly behind AOD/HD-DVD. If, say, Fox were to join them, and the three refused to release Blu-Ray titles, the fight will be over and the Blu-Ray CE companies will start making AOD/HD-DVD players like good little lapdogs.

    Remember when Sony refused to support DVD-R (sticking with DVD+R, which they have an interest in). Didn't last long.

    I'm sure that one motivation of the Blu-Ray group is to sell a bunch of new replicating hardware (and make royalties on the replicating hardware that they don't make). AOD doesn't require extensive retooling of production lines, which keeps manufacturer and consumer costs down...but doesn't line Sony's pockets. Keeping the costs down is good for adoption of a format.
     
  9. KrisM

    KrisM Well-Known Member

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    Ugh. Do we really need yet another thread in the music section about formats? And this one has turned into a debate about video quality.
    I think HTF should have a separate area for format discussions. People can talk all about DTS/Dolby, DVD-A/SACD and whatever else all they want, and leave the music area for people to discuss music.
    Sorry for the rant.

    Regards
    KrisM
     
  10. Michael St. Clair

    Michael St. Clair Well-Known Member

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    I think it is pretty obvious from the subject header that format debate will follow...I can't see any surprise by anybody who chooses to read the thread...no offense.

    Though I kind of like the separate area idea.
     
  11. KrisM

    KrisM Well-Known Member

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    No offense taken. I wasn't really surprised, it's just that this thread, and like so many others before it, are so far from music, I don't get why we have them. I enjoy this part of the HTF when it concentrates on the tunes, not what mutli-gazillion dollar companies are doing. I don't want to thread fart though, so I'll just try to ignore it. I think I'll put some music on. What format? It doesn't matter.[​IMG]

    Regards
    KrisM
     
  12. Michael St. Clair

    Michael St. Clair Well-Known Member

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    I think the fact that some people are eager to talk about future high-res audio formats is an indicator as to just how stagnant DVD-A and SACD are. Not very encouraging.
     
  13. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Well-Known Member

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    On the contrary...I started this thread because I see that an opportunity exists to unify three formats into one high capacity system...

    1. Data storage.
    2. Hidef video.
    3. Hirez music (or redbook as well) plus extra features.

    That may be a way to salvage to-date investments in MLP and DSD.

    ***Think of the marketing advantages and economies of scale (and lower consumer costs!) from doing all 3 at once.****

    You might have Dell, HP, Epson, etc. pressing the Data applications, Sony/Philips, Warner?, and hundreds of labels pressing the music improvement, and every major studio pressing the video format advantages.

    Everyone wins by getting the early adopters to re-purchase their movie collection, encourage more hi-def/digital TV sales, and create a "step-up" product for the serious music fan. And it can all be done without alienating the current audiophile base by preserving Super Audio and DVDA playback at least in the high end world!

    Having the studios on board would make it more likely that surround sound demos like the ones in German cinemas would be used as previews to build excitement.

    Better to have one massive promotion creating a new big pie that everyone gets a slice of.

    Also, the good news is that BluRay is said to be backward compatible with both existing DVDs and redbook CDs.

    The future is bright. [​IMG]
     
  14. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but that alone will not be enough to overwhelm the combined market power of the current BluRay group.

    As for Sony supporting the DVD-R, that is not a good argument as they had far fewer supporting companies. Remember Matsushita owns several major Japanese brands and controls a large portion of the market.

    I hope Marc Colella provides me some links to video differences. I would like to see if MPEG2 in high-def resolution is really all that bad. The WSJ article spoke with some un-named studio chiefs and they really liked the picture quality...
     
  15. Michael St. Clair

    Michael St. Clair Well-Known Member

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    Well, MLP is already part of the HD-DVD spec, so they are already ahead of Blu-Ray on the hi-res audio side.
     
  16. John Kotches

    John Kotches Well-Known Member

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    Lee,

    Look through AVS Forum sometime. There are some very strong and talented individuals that participate there.

    Michael,

    Correct. At this point, there is no provision for Hi-Res Audio+Video on a single stream for Blu-Ray. Note edit
    Why? MPEG-2 is too inefficient.

    Cheers,
     
  17. Michael St. Clair

    Michael St. Clair Well-Known Member

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    Stacey Spears has encoded WM9 test material for Joe Kane. I'm sure he has some insight.
     
  18. Marc Colella

    Marc Colella Well-Known Member

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    How did I get dragged into all of this? [​IMG]

    Sorry Lee.. I don't have any of those links.

    However, from what I've been reading - it seems that professionals consider MPEG2 to be out-of-date and just not efficient enough for Hi-Def.
    A new format deserves a newer codec that can take better advantage of the technology.
     
  19. Jeff Savage

    Jeff Savage Well-Known Member

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    You know Lee may be right but really in the end it will come down to studio support. The players can't do much without the software. Who will win? Whichever format has commitments for Star Wars 1-6, Lord of the Rings, and Pixar stuff [​IMG]

    Laters,
    Jeff
     
  20. ElevSkyMovie

    ElevSkyMovie Well-Known Member

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    Lee,

    It's not about mpeg2 being worse than the other codecs, it's about efficiency. If mpeg4 looks as good at 10mb/s as mpeg2 does at 28mb/s, why use mpeg2? It will take over twice the processing horsepower as well as over twice the storage space on disc. Doesn't make any sense to me to use mpeg2 if there are better codecs out there.
     

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