Why do people get upset about dubbing?.. (1 Viewer)

[Richard Kim]

I disagree. Although I agree good dubs are extremely rare, they can be extremely faithful to the creators intent. A good example is Cowboy Bebop, which is widely regarded as one of the best anime dubs out there (and considered better than the original Japanese).

As for Miyazaki, he is quoted as saying that Jean Reno's French version of Porco Rosso is the BEST out of all the others, EVEN the Japanese version. He's also quoted as saying that there's no such thing as OSL in animation. That's why I'm more accepting of dubs in anime than live action (provided they're good).

 

[Rob Gardiner]

You're not telling me that the little slivers of image behind the subtitles are equivalent to the entire vocal performances, carefully crafted by the director and cast, which are removed and replaced by new performances by an alternate cast with no input by the director, are you?

Let me put it this way: let's assume that all other factors are equal. In other words, both the dub and subtitle scripts are equally accurate translations of the original dialogue. There exist 2 versions of a film: one version contains all the original performances by the original cast, given under the close supervision of the director. The other version features all new performances by a group of voice actors who have never been in the same room as the person whose name appears under the Director credit on the film. Which version of the film more accurately represents the director's intent? To me, the answer is clear. In fact, it's beyond clear -- it's painfully obvious.

Let me give you another hypothetical situation: let's say someone prepares an alternate version of ON THE WATERFRONT. In this new version, all scenes featuring Marlon Brando have been re-shot with another actor in his place. (In the case of shots where Brando appears with other actors in the same frame, Forrest Gump technology is used to complete the illusion.) We now have two versions of the film -- one with Brando playing the lead, and one with another actor. Accuracy of translation is not an issue. Does one version of the film more accurately reflect Elia Kazan's intent than the other? Why or why not?

 

[Steve Y]

I like to hear the inflection of the original actor's voice, to go along with the body language, gestures, other actors' voices, etc. If people would rather avoid subtitles than get the "origional" voice performances in a film, then I really have nothing to say about it. It's a matter of opinion.

Overdubbing or looping (when the same actor re-dubs a voice in post-production) is a completely different issue because the inflection and voice (and actual WORDS) are synchronized. You run into deeper problems when two entirely different languages (with their own lengths, rhythms, and meaning) are transplanted on top of each other.

That said -- sometimes I go back and forth on certain anime titles between the "literal translation" subtitle and the "english translation" - and it's obvious that even subtitles can be misleading. They're often entirely different (I prefer the literal translations, for the record). So if you don't speak the language, you'll never get the full meaning from simply reading a dub track OR studing the text of a subtitle. Fair enough.

However -- at least with the subtitles you also get to hear the original performance to catch the nuances of what the actor (directer, writer, sound person) intended. A growl in a voice, an upturned phrase, a certain scream... after a while, after you watch a LOT of subtitles and get really good at reading them, you forget you're even reading! They become essentially invisible and you get as close as humanly possible to understanding another language without actually learning it. You even begin to catch certain phrases and become deeply familiar with the dramatic situations in which they are used (the context)... you are getting a purer vision of the original work.

I've personally gained a full appreciation of foreign languages and particular idioms. To me this is much far more rewarding and mind-expanding than dubs (taken by itself), although I don't knock those who want dubs only. Not everyone is going to want to do all this.

cheers!!

s

 

[DaveGTP]

That's how I feel.


Good discussion guys.

 

[george kaplan]

Well those emphases are lost in the subtitles too. Unless the subtitles bold certain words, you're not going to know what the emphasis is, unless you know the Czechoslovakian words for Why and for Women.

Let me ask a related question. How many of you buy region 2 dvds? Because to me, PAL speedup of the original audio is just as much a travesty as anything else to the film.

 

[Holadem]

Some use italics for emphasis. Haven't seen that too often though.

--
H

 

[DaveGTP]

That's kinda what I was getting at. For each thing gained by a subtitle as compared to a dubbed vocal there is also something lost.

 

[TheLongshot]

I don't think there is anyone arguing that subtitles DOESN'T change a film. What I say is that is less of a compromise than replacing all the audio with other actors.

Also, if a DVD is worth a damn, you should be able to turn off the subtitles. (Unfortunatly, some stupid licensing rules sometimes interfere with this...)

Jason

 

[Juan C]

That assumes other languages use intonation to emphasize specific words within a sentence, which is rarely the case. For example, in some languages emphasis is achieved by altering the usual word order (placing the emphasized part at the beginning of the sentence), or using indicating words.

But it is true that the necessary condensation of dialogue for subtitles tends to eliminate nuances of the speeches.

 

[Cees Alons]

... which, however, can still be heard on the audio in the case of subtitling. Especially in case of an argument.


Cees

 

[Kenneth]

To clarify I also generally prefer subtitles for myself except where the dubs are particularly good (Miyazaki movies, Slayers, etc). Since I often have movies running in the background while I work or do other activities a dub is more effective than reading subtitles which actually require me to look at the screen constantly.

Where feasible, I think DVD's should have both since that gives the consumer the maximum choice. As for the theatrical release version that is not always up to the director anyway. Most directors depend on OPM (Other People's Money) to bring their artistic vision to life. Because of that, the investors/distributors/studio may have some say as to the alternate versions available (TV cuts, airline cuts, IMAX versions, dubbing vs subtitling, etc). Generally a foreign film will only rate subtitles since those would be cheaper than redubbing an entire film. However, where the investors think a dub will increase the marketability of the film they are entitled to offer that alternative (although it would be best if both the subtitled and dubbed versions are released).

Cheers,

Kenneth

 

[Juan C]

Conversely, the viewers should have the right to choose whether to watch a foreign movie dubbed or subtitled. As we have seen on this thread, that doesn't happen too often.

In Spain, only the two major cities (Madrid and Barcelona) have a circuit of theatres usually showing subtitled films (of art-house and mainstream titles). The rest of filmgoers have no option but watch the films dubbed.

In Switzerland, there are some theatres that show the same movie dubbed and subtitled at different hours. Of course, that involves more expense in buying and storing duplicate prints.

For DVD releases, some studios don't include Spanish subtitles for a part of their catalogue. Case in point, MGM, who decided not to include a Spanish subtitle track for many of their classic films, because there already was a Spanish dub track on the DVD.

 

[George See]

Id have to second that, i've come to appreciate the beauty and rhythm of several different languages. French, Spanish, Mandarin chinese, without understanding most of the words I can still appreciate the nuances and poetry of these languages. That's one thing a dub definitely cannot offer.

 

[Juan C]

Not to mention, you'll have a whole catalog of conveniently inconspicuous profane words at your disposal. Next time your work PC crashes, just say 'Merde!'.

 

[Nils Luehrmann]

Steve, great post!

This is in fact why I try to watch foreign language films twice within a close period of time. Once with subtitles, or on occasions with dubs, then a second viewing with neither. It is a very effective method for absorbing the film in its entirety as it was originally presented and like you, it to has given me a better appreciation of foreign languages, their unique idioms, cultural differences, and how they compare to our own.

Especially for theatrical releases (after all this thread is located in the ‘Movies’ forum and not the ‘Software’ forum), I am in favor of subtitles. The text, for the most part, can be ignored by the viewers who are either familiar with the foreign language, or for those like me who have already watched it once, such that they are already familiar with the dialogue, and can now focus entirely on the film and vocal performances of the original actors. Theatrical releases that are dubbed unfortunately would never allow for the same experience.

However, as someone who has seen countless foreign language films, and who owns an extensive collection of foreign films on video, I have found that not all subtitles and dubs are created equally and each deserves consideration. As such, I am and will always be in favor of offering both, at least for video releases. In the same way, I am currently in favor of giving consumers the choice between OAR and P&S, original and remixed audio tracks, theatrical and director cuts, etc.

What I am not in favor of is the notion that consumers shouldn't be given a choice even when the majority have decided one format is better than another and thus feel it necessary to subject the minority to their will.

Obviously there are costs and conditions that cannot be ignored when a studio considers multiple choices for both theatrical and video releases and because of that, most will not be offered with multiple audio and video options. The upcoming release of high capacity DVDs will certainly help alleviate the issue of limited disc space that may have prevented multiple A/V choices for some titles, but that wont solve the financial cost of creating these choices in the first place.

 

[Lars Vermundsberget]

Good discussion, folks. It probably would have been harder to keep it so civil, though, if it weren't for the fact that hardly anyone is against subtitles, even though not all are quite against dubs.

I think I know a thing or two about approaches to translation. I won't say much about that, but, IMO, the bottom line seems to be that you simply won't get a translation that is a hundred percent in every aspect.

Both subs and dubs can be more or less good (or bad); it's fair to say that both alternatives represent a compromise. But which one is "the lesser evil"?

It has been reasoned that one or the other is better in terms of this or that, but I can't really buy that. There's both good and bad and it's difficult to generalize - therefore easy to overgeneralize.

So there's really no doubt in my mind: I take the "purist stance". That's what it boils down to. Just like I won't have the picture "modified" to fit whatever is the shape of my TV screen, I won't be without the original dialogue. The "modification aspect" in adding subtitles is in itself minimal.

It does of course have something to do with where one comes from, literally, as well. Where I'm from (Norway), dubbing is used for Disney animation and other titles that are to a large extent targeted at kids. That's a good reason in itself and it's also less bad with animation because you won't hear the real voices of the "people" you see on screen anyway.

Apart from that, dubbing is practically never done. Really. We're very used to subtitles. And I can tell you, it's not about "focusing on reading instead of watching the movie", which some seem to think. If you really get used to it (and we've grown up with it), reading short subtitles takes just a glimpse of the eye and hardly distracts from experiencing and enjoying the rest of the movie. "Understanding what's being said" does not happen in a "vacuum" of only hearing the spoken words (of a language one does or does not understand) OR only reading the subtitles. One hears the spoken words, and even if one does not know the language, it is possible to get some sort of "meaning" or "experience" out of it. At the same time, or inbetween, one catches a glimpse of the subtitles. The two elements create a whole. And it works, in my experience.

Admittedly, it's more difficult with "very foreign" languages than with just "mildly foreign" languages...

There might be some good side-effects: I happened to notice that one post (#43) mentioned the English-skills of Scandinavians. Some researchers have suggested that whatever English skills Scaninavians have, might to a large extent stem from the fact that practically no English-language movies or TV material are ever dubbed. Some have also suggested that the reading-skills of a people of proficient subtitle readers are better than they would have been otherwise. I don't know if that can be credibly sustantiated and I have no references to such research, but it could make sense.

Besides, dubs somehow tend to seem weird or fake. The Germans are very good at the craft, I know, but still...

 

[Steve Y]

That's an interesting point about dubbing being more appropriate for animated films than for live-action films. Although rhythm differences between certain languages have created, in my experience, way more bad soundtracks than good soundtracks (esp. Japanese to English), I think that when done right, it CAN match the spirit of the character, whereas I don't think you can put another language/voice on the image of another (acting) human being and make it work just right.

But on a drawn figure... sounds reasonable. There's more leeway. Having admitted that, I still prefer subtitles. Especially when, like in many American animated films, the voices are recorded first and then the characters are animated to suit the actor's style. The foreign actor doing the Genie in Aladdin, for example, could ONLY pull it off by doing a pale imitation of Robin Williams.

s

 

[george kaplan]

So you don't watch any dvds with PAL speedup, right? Cause that's not the original dialog.

 

[Seth Paxton]

In terms of learning a language from a subtitled film, I would say this is nearly impossible simply because what is being said rarely matches the subtitles and that if you are trying to pick up and translate what is being said you will miss the subtitles and then lose the whole thing.

With French films, a language I'm getting decent at, I have to either have no subs and just suffer with getting about 30% of it, or I can't try at all except for the rare occassions where I read the short title and already have an idea what that expression will be before I hear it.

Typically what I find is that you get something like "Come to the park with us" subtitled as "We should go there". Maybe in terms of the usage and context this is the same meaning, but in terms of what you are listening for you simply won't hear those words and can be confused by what you do hear (barring a pause and replay).



On the other hand I will agree that often a film's theme and tone will be very much tied to the region it was made in and the language can enhance that. Its the same reason why accents are used in English language films for characters of another country (like German accented Nazis for example).

But while I may pick up on something like "Bitter" in Run Lola Run, I'm hella far from learning German to any degree.


I really do think that if better talent were put into the dub process on a typical basis that people would find it more acceptable and interesting. RLolaR is one in which I hate the dub because the acting lacks any of the emotions found in the original effort and sadly this is more par for course than Das Boot or GBUgly.

 

[Dome Vongvises]

"THE BOLTS! THEY'RE BREAKING!"

I just remember that line from Das Boot for some reason. It was a funny sounding dub.