A Few Words About While we wait for A few words about...™ The Rodgers & Hammerstein Collection -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Reed Grele]

Oklahoma looks great! Did anyone else notice that they fixed the "The End" title that always jumped.

I noticed.

 

[Charles Smith]

We then sneak-peeked, through chapter jumping, The King and I. I think it's unfair to try judging ANYTHING right after spending a few hours with the Todd-AO, but I think we both found this to look pretty damned good overall while perhaps again lacking in the kind of sharpness or clarity we expected. No judgment or comments re the "blue" issues. I can see what people are complaining about, but I suspect it's mostly correct and I'm giving Fox the benefit of the doubt while it's further investigated and analyzed and debated by those with more experienced eyes than mine.

Being especially interested in how the "Small House of Uncle Thomas" ballet fared, I made us sit through the whole thing, and I thought that was absolutely splendid. First of all, musically and visually, this is a very special piece and we are so fortunate to have it preserved on film. No complaints whatever, except for the appearance of a bit of audio distortion/overload in the final choral/orchestral "Praise to Buddha" phrases that I have always been bothered by, and have always wished had been better recorded. It's always sounded to me like someone wasn't paying attention to their VU meters at the time of recording. (It's probably not as simple as that, and I'll appreciate it if anyone can weigh in on this seeming anomaly in an otherwise fantastic production.)

 

[Joe Caps]

For the record, Oklahoma used a pickup orchestra and is definitely NOT the Fox orchestra.

 

[Charles Smith]

oops. Right. My bad.

 

[bigshot]

I wonder why they didn't double print the 30 frames on Todd/AO Oklahoma up to 60 fps and make it progressive?The dream ballet in Oklahoma was astounding. I've never seen anything look better than that on my system.

 

[Charles Smith]

The dream ballet in Oklahoma was astounding. I've never seen anything look better than that on my system.

Agree. Incredible. And the Act 1 close, with Intermission, are SO much more satisfying than the non-roadshow version.

 

[Tom Logan]

A lone voice on this, perhaps, but I find the Todd-AO Oklahoma 30fps artificial smoothness to be a tad distracting. (122" screen, JVC RS-1 projector)

A few minutes in, I found myself wondering why it seemed video-ish, and then I remembered the 30fps, and then remembered that this was a milder version of what I experienced with The Hobbit and its 48fps.

Do any other Blu-ray releases have a different framerate? Also, is there any adjustment I can make on my player or projector to mitigate the smoothness?

 

[Will Krupp]

A lone voice on this, perhaps, but I find the Todd-AO Oklahoma 30fps artificial smoothness to be a tad distracting.

To be clear, it's not "artificial" smoothness as it represents the 30fps filming as was done "in-camera" 60 years ago. The very point of filming at that frame rate was to be well above the "flicker rate" and produce a smooth window-like picture.

It should certainly NOT look video-ish unless you have something turned on that increases the refresh rate and interpolates additional frames.

 

[Reed Grele]

Definitely make sure that you have "frame creation" or any other interpolating settings on you projector turned off, or at the lowest settings.

 

[Tom Logan]

On my projector (JVC-RS1), I don't find a setting that pertains to framerate, frame creation, or interpolation.

On my player, Sony BDP-S5100, there's a "screen setting" for "BD-ROM 24p Output," which has Auto, On, or Off settings. I've tried all three, and no difference.

When I hit the player's Display button while Todd-AD Oklahoma is playing, it shows "1080/60p" and for other discs it usually says "1080/24p." It should read something other than 60p, correct?

Obviously, I don't know what I'm doing with respect to framerate adjustments, so any help appreciated.

 

[Wayne_j]

The 1080/60P reading is correct, it's what my system outputs on anything other than 24p material.

 

[JoshZ]

On my projector (JVC-RS1), I don't find a setting that pertains to framerate, frame creation, or interpolation.

On my player, Sony BDP-S5100, there's a "screen setting" for "BD-ROM 24p Output," which has Auto, On, or Off settings. I've tried all three, and no difference.

When I hit the player's Display button while Todd-AD Oklahoma is playing, it shows "1080/60p" and it usually says "1080/24p." It should read something other than 60p, correct?

Obviously, I don't know what I'm doing with respect to framerate adjustments, so any help appreciated.

The RS1 does not have frame interpolation. That feature wasn't added until later models. Also, frame interpolation can only be performed in the display. Your Blu-ray player can't do it. What you're seeing is not frame interpolation.

The Todd-AO disc is encoded at 1080i/60 resolution. The original 30 frames per second have been divided to separate interlaced fields. If your Blu-ray player is set for 1080p output (as opposed to "Native"), it will deinterlace this to 1080p/60. If you set it for "Native," your projector will do the deinterlacing. Regardless, what appears on your screen is 1080p/60.

Puzzling, since 1080p/60 is supported by Blu-ray.

No, not as a disc encoding format. Blu-ray only supports 1080p resolution at 24 frames per second. However, a Blu-ray player can add 3:2 Pulldown downstream and output it at 1080p/60. But that's not what we're dealing with here.

In order to keep the original 30fps frame rate, the disc had to be encoded at either 720p/60 (downconverted in resolution, but a simple 2:2 Pulldown for speed) or 1080i/60. Of those, the latter is the lesser of two evils.

 

[Virgoan]

Just for clarification, there are folks who believe "South Pacific" was filmed under the same conditions as "Oklahoma!" re: Magna producing.

Magna produced "Oklahoma!" RKO distributed the Magna Todd-AO production and 20th Century-Fox distributed (and did nothing more on the film) the CinemaScope version.

"South Pacific", while "produced" by Magna, was in ever single way a production of 20th Century-Fox...cameras, technicians, all arts/crafts personnel, including Al Newman, Ken Darby and the Fox orchestra. Recordings were done AT Fox.

Fox distributed the Magna production in this case, too.

I've long suspected that "South Pacific's" absence from adjusted all-time box-office gross lists is due to Magna (or R&H) not providing updated grosses for the film (which was 1958's top-grossing film and one of 1959's top grossers, especially internationally). For MANY years before movies started grossing hundreds of millions of dollars, "South Pacific" was a prominent inclusion in the top 10 grossing films of all time, along with "The Robe" and "Ben-Hur" and "The Ten Commandments". Adjusted boxoffice for "South Pacific" would be in the same ball park as those listed for "The Robe", give or take a few million dollars.

 

[Tom Logan]

Thanks for the responses, Josh and Wayne. So it looks like there is no adjustment I need to make--or can make.

As I watch more of this Todd-AO version, the artificialness--it's almost like fast motion but slowed down to synch with the audio--really distracts me. So either I'm super-sensitive (could be, I also hate early Michael Mann digital cam smearing), or I need a newer projector. I wonder how much of a difference that would make, though.

Are there any other major catalog releases at a different frame rate?

 

[Virgoan]

A lone voice on this, perhaps, but I find the Todd-AO Oklahoma 30fps artificial smoothness to be a tad distracting. (122" screen, JVC RS-1 projector)

A few minutes in, I found myself wondering why it seemed video-ish, and then I remembered the 30fps, and then remembered that this was a milder version of what I experienced with The Hobbit and its 48fps.

Do any other Blu-ray releases have a different framerate? Also, is there any adjustment I can make on my player or projector to mitigate the smoothness?

I've noted zero smoothness on this version. What I see is fine grain that looks like a film being projected (although I don't have projection).

 

[Tom Logan]

I've noted zero smoothness on this version. What I see is fine grain that looks like a film being projected (although I don't have projection).

And I guess the irony is that this version looks more like video on my projector.

 

[Mark-P]

Thanks for the responses, Josh and Wayne. So it looks like there is no adjustment I need to make--or can make.

As I watch more of this Todd-AO version, the artificialness--it's almost like fast motion but slowed down to synch with the audio--really distracts me. So either I'm super-sensitive (could be, I also hate early Michael Mann digital cam smearing), or I need a newer projector. I wonder how much of a difference that would make, though.

Are there any other major catalog releases at a different frame rate?

Tom, I think you are just one of those people who have a hard time adjusting to higher frame rates. We are all so used to the look of 24 fps with its flicker and judder that the smoothness of higher frame rates doesn't look "natural." What you are describing as "artificial" most others here are saying it's like "looking through a window." If HFR became the norm on all new movies you'd eventually get used to it.

 

[Jon Baker]

How does State Fair and Carousel look in comparison to Oklahoma?

 

[Tom Logan]

If HFR became the norm on all new movies you'd eventually get used to it.

Well, if they became the norm, I'd have no choice. But it doesn't mean I'd have to like it.

In any case, I began this thread by saying I'd be a lone voice. But if HFR didn't catch on in 1955, and it looks to be slowly--if at all--adopted by anything other the biggest budget spectacle innovator films, I'd say HFR is unlikely to be the norm for movies in my lifetime (+_ 30 years). And I'm grateful for that, because this version of Oklahoma is, for me, nigh unwatchable.

ETA: Thanks again, all, for the help in eliminating set-up problems as the issue.

 

[Will Krupp]

And I'm grateful for that, because this version of Oklahoma is, for me, nigh unwatchable.

See, that's why I'm thinking something HAS to be "off" but I can't for the life of me figure out what. I researched your projector but JoshZ beat me to the punch that it can't be frame interpolation as your projector doesn't have that option.

It sucks because it's a really beautiful presentation