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A Few Words About While we wait for A few words about...™ Raiders of the Lost Ark -- in Blu-ray

Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by Robert Harris, Aug 31, 2012.

  1. Doctorossi

    Doctorossi Well-Known Member

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    If you want to re-create the original theatrical experience, your frame-line will need to vary considerably. Your cropped Alien disc may still be giving you a larger picture area than many original theatrical screenings. Also, you're going to need to scale your resolution down substantially.
     
  2. antoniobiz1

    antoniobiz1 Well-Known Member

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    This is interesting. Would you care to elaborate on the bold part?
     
  3. FoxyMulder

    FoxyMulder 映画ファン

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    No it's not 12%, you are talking pixels, film doesn't have pixels, i am talking loss of some of the image compared to some DVD editions and that works out at about 3% at each side of the frame but Doctorossi maybe have the answer to why that is, sounds logical to me since i don't appear to be missing anything important when i view such films.
     
  4. Worth

    Worth Well-Known Member

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    No cinema projects the entire image - even the very best theatres mask off a few percent of the total frame. Directors and cinematographers are aware of this and compose their shots accordingly.
    I'm all for proper presentation, but complaints about losing a tiny sliver of information, or anal-retentive discussions about the differences between 1.78 vs. 1.85, or 1.33 vs. 1.37 are something of a pet peeve.
    Given the amount of blu-rays still released with older, sub-par transfers, or excessive digital tampering, there are more important fights to pick out there.
     
  5. antoniobiz1

    antoniobiz1 Well-Known Member

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    What film has to do with my math? You were talking about the difference between DCP 2k and Blu-ray. Those are pixels. Either you scale, or your area varies. The area difference is more than 12% (unless my math is wrong).
     
  6. antoniobiz1

    antoniobiz1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not talking about one or two percent, I'm talking 12% besides the crop applied to the 2k DCP.
     
  7. Doctorossi

    Doctorossi Well-Known Member

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    Commercial cinema configurations in 1979 were inconsistent. There's a reason that the production standard for theatrical prints features a framing safe-area. I don't know if there's much more I can elaborate.
    Printing varies.
    Projector gates vary.
    Throw distances and angles vary.
    Matte boxes vary.
    Screen dimensions vary.
    Scrims vary.
    Operator preferences and competencies vary.
    Etc.
     
  8. FoxyMulder

    FoxyMulder 映画ファン

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    Yeah but its 3% each side and 3% at top and bottom to add up to a total of 12%, it's not just a massive 12% lopped off one side only and without consideration, they film it with safeguards in mind and that's within the safe area of filming that cinematographers use and others on this thread have pointed out, indeed i even pointed out myself in my posts above and said this is the likely reason it happens. I'd love to see every pixel but there must be a tech reason they do it for blu ray and thus i can live with it.
     
  9. antoniobiz1

    antoniobiz1 Well-Known Member

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    Forgive me if I insist. But this means two things: either the dcp is cropped when projected, or those who see the dcp will see a larger picture (meaning a larger portion of the frame). And by the way I know there is a difference between camera aperture and projector aperture, but I was under the impression that what you see on the DCP is the projection aperture, not the camera aperture. So, in other words, the original film has ALREADY been cropped when it becomes a DCP.
    Please understand that I am not trying to win an argument with you or any other of the guys kind enough to reply, just trying to make sense out of something that irritates me to no end.
     
  10. Doctorossi

    Doctorossi Well-Known Member

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    My guess (and this is only a guess) is that the DCP will feature the wider framing. The crop is performed for the Blu-ray master because scaling the video by such a small percentage (the difference between 2K and 1080p) could introduce processing artifacts. I would imagine that the DCP would be made from the master, as is. There would be no particular reason to perform the extra processing step to match it to the Blu-ray precisely and providing a little more viewable picture area would afford theaters some framing wiggle-room.
     
  11. FoxyMulder

    FoxyMulder 映画ファン

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    As Doctorossi says and i already mentioned the possible scaling artifacts which is usually introducing ringing into the image.
     
  12. TonyD

    TonyD Who do we think I am?

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    About to watch on IMAX. This is gonna b fun.
     
  13. TomTom

    TomTom Active Member

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    Isn't DCP is masked when projected, not cropped.
    Isn't film safety designed for the display and not the intermediates in between? A traditional film workflow would have film neg to film print and repositioning very rarely happened.
    So that no one saw the horrible edges theaters masked about 5% all around it.
    Most film scanning is 2k or 4k of the full aperture and from there you make your deliverables whether full width lasered to academy or 2k DCI or 1998 DCI.
    Since people today watch these movies on computers and plasmas with zero overscan capability--"seeing all the picture" should be accounted for.
     
  14. JoshZ

    JoshZ Well-Known Member

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    It impacts Alien in the early scene where the crew awakens from their hibernation chambers. The shot was perfectly framed to show the sides of the pods and the tops of the open canopies. The Blu-ray is awkwardly cropped.
    http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare2/alien/0.5.38_OldR1.jpg
    http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film3/blu-ray_reviews52/alien_blu-ray_/930__alien_blu-ray_1.jpg
    The framing isn't bothersome in the rest of the movie, however.
    The difference in this comparison is only a tiny smidge of picture on each side. A difference like that isn't unexpected when comparing two separate scans performed on different telecines years apart. That's not the same situation at all.
     
  15. FoxyMulder

    FoxyMulder 映画ファン

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    I know it isn't but i had nothing else to use, it was more a case of trying to show that some blu rays have less picture info than the DVD, in this case it was the reverse.
     
  16. Wayne_j

    Wayne_j Well-Known Member

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    Just saw it in digital IMAX, looked great and very film like.
     
  17. Guest

    Compare the original dvd of Alien to the blu ray and you will notice even more cropping.
     
  18. Dave MJ

    Dave MJ Well-Known Member

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    This is the first I have heard about the extras containing actual deleted scenes. That is great news. Can you elaborate about the scene that was shown?
     
  19. Dave MJ

    Dave MJ Well-Known Member

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    Hi Robert, Raiders is one of my all time favorite movies and I am intimiately familiar with the sound mix (I even have 2 different stereo cassette recordings I made in the theater as an 11 year old during the original 1981 run. I listened to them endlessly until the VHS was released years later) and am somewhat nervous that it will be different. Despite best intentions, there always seems to be differences in music levels, dynamic range, panning, etc. The DVD is mainly true to the dolby mix, but the surrounds were pumped up and the dynamic range was squashed in some places compared to the laserdisc. Was this a complete remix of the original elements, or just a remix of the main stems at higher quality? And what is an "optical SVA track"? I'm not familiar with that term.
     
  20. Todd Erwin

    Todd Erwin Well-Known Member
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    From Wikipedia:

    Quote:
     

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