What's the difference between tubes and solid state? (1 Viewer)

[RobertR]

I think the point was that except for the CRT itself, which is of course a tube, today's TVs are pure solid state, and no one can say they aren't MUCH more reliable and hassle free than the old TVs with a lot of tubes.

 

[Shane Martin]

true but if the objective accuracy makes you not wish to listen to the music, what's the point? I don't eat certain food because it's objectively better for me. I eat it because I LIKE IT. The same is said for music. Then again I can see this being a dead horse topic.

Kevins post is VERY dead on.

Tubes vs Solid State: My answer whatever floats your boat. If you enjoy tubes more and it makes you enjoy the music more, so be it. I don't think anyone will claim a tube sys tem is more accurate or technically better, they will claim(more often that not), it sounds better. Whether a statement like that is good enough for you is like discussing whether you prefer chocholate or vanilla ice cream.

 

[Kevin_R_H]

Shane,

Thanks for the support. We need to get Alex over to HTT - we'll treat him right there...

Kevin

 

[RobertR]

The only problem I have with that analogy is that there is no original reference that the chocolate and vanilla have to be accurate to. However, that is not the case with music. There is an original. A better analogy would be "Chef A replicates the original dish better than Chef B, but I don't care because I prefer the taste of Chef B's dish".

 

[Alex_C]

HTT?

 

[Kevin_R_H]

Robert,

You're slipping down a slippery slope...

Please don't speak of "accuracy", or "being faithful to the source" when speaking of audio equipment. Because there is no point of reference. At least not one that is known.

What is the "source"? Please don't say the "performance that is being recorded" - this would be dead wrong. No, the "source" is the recording of the performance being recorded. And no one alive knows what that is supposed to sound like. Not the recording engineer, and not the performer.

Why????

Because the recording process itself "colors" the sound far more than any tube amp ever could. From the "sonic attributes" of the microphones/pickups; through the cables; through the mixing board; to whatever "tweaks" the sound engineer wants to impart - the final product (the "source", if you will) is undefinable. And it certainly doesn't accurately reflect the performance being recorded.

Then when trying to re-create it in our listening rooms, our playback systems add their own colorations. It's unavoidable. Whose system get closest to the original source (the recording, remember)??? Who knows. And if you're wanting to know whose systems most approximates the original performance, you have no shot.

So, if you ever hear someone say "man, my system is so hot, I swear I thought I had Marvin Gaye performing in my room last night", well, something is seriously wrong with their system (as it relates to "accuracy", of course).

Therefore, the most any audio enthusiast can ever hope for is a system that they find pleasing. Nothing else matters.

Kevin

 

[RobertR]

You're contradicting yourself. You already defined the source as the recording.

Are there bad recordings? Of course. Is the solution to have a system with less linearity, more distortion, etc.? No. Of course, if you prefer those things, you are free to do so, but don't say they are the solution to poor recording decisions.

 

[Angelo.M]

This is not available in a tube. Not yet, at least...

 

[Jack Briggs]

Yes, beer! No, tubes.

 

[Kevin_R_H]

Robert,

You state:



Again, how do you know what "accurate" is???

Let's say I showed you a painting of a specific woman's face, and I asked you "is this an accurate painting?". How could you possibly respond (if you have never seen the woman before)?

So, how do you know if a given system is accurately reproducing the "source"? Since it is impossible for you (or anyone else) to determine what the source is supposed to sound like, there is no "right" answer.

This has always been (and always will be) the "audiophile's dilemma".

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When it comes to distortion, the discrepancy between Solid State amps and top-notch tube amps are immaterial. As long as the the amp in question has a Signal-to-Noise ratio that keeps the noise (distortion) well below human perception, there is no "real world" difference between 0.3% distortion (for a tube amp) and 0.00000000003% distortion (for a Solid State amp).

The fact that one falls well below my ability to hear the "noise" does not make it less desirable than another that is way, way, way, way, way below my ability to hear. They both pass this test.

Kevin

 

[Kevin_R_H]

Alex,

HTT stand for Home Theater Talk. The head honcho there used to be an administrator here, but decided to branch out on his own.

It is pretty much equally geared to 2-channel music and Home Theater (without the stuffiness of some audio sites). come by and take a gander - if you like it, you are welcome to stick around. It's where I spend 80% of my internet time.

Kevin

 

[RobertR]

I think you’re switching your basis of comparison, Kevin. You defined the audio recording as the source (instead of the original performance), but then you don’t want to define the painting as the source, even though both are a recording of an original event.

A recording engineer is indeed analogous to a photographer or cinematographer. They record a live subject. The job of the reproducing equipment is to replicate accurately what they recorded. It would be like having a display showing a film, and you said “yeah, I know the cinematographer wanted the film to have warm colors, but I prefer cooler colors, so I’ll watch it that way”. That is, of course, your choice. What you cannot say is that it’s faithful to the recording (which you defined as the source).

 

[RobertR]

If there's no "real world" difference, why buy a tube amp? There must be some difference that people are reacting to, and no, it isn't just a matter of tubes clipping "easier".

 

[Nick Bum]

Wow people. This seems to be quite a hot debate. I want to thorw in that when you are the engineer you can really change the song alot when you master it. The scratch recordings sound alot more like what you actually heard the performer do. When it gets mastered it changes completley. And the mics that you use to record all have diffrent ranges and distortion levels...but yeah this will take us nowhere. Its something that we run into in history alot(im a poli-sci/history major that gets studio time).

 

[Angelo.M]

Jack, I'm thinking of bottling my next batch of home-brew in tubes. Sylvania, maybe. Now if I can only keep the damned things sterile...

 

[Chu Gai]

Well that's true. However the practicality of what's out there suggests a less rosy picture. The spec's for tube based units suggest that there's not all that much difference between them and solid state. Sure, we could quibble about the differences in distortion levels and whether they're audible or not. Looking at the specs even suggests that tube based units are quite linear over the usual 20-20k range. Sure they are if you're looking at 100 milliwatts into a static 8 ohm resitor. Specs though, are a manufacturer's way of dumbing down things to make their product look good. Specs are not measurements. In case anybody didn't get this the first time around, SPECS ARE NOT MEASUREMENTS.

When one looks at the measurement of a tube amp when hooked up to a real load, like a speaker, over varying volumes, a few things become apparent.

a) The output impedance varies not only with frequency but with volume and this variation is by no means linear. Virtually every speaker made today was designed such that it was meant to be driven by what's known as a constant voltage source. While one might argue that even solid state is not a constant voltage source, it most assuredly is that and more compared to the gut of tube based amps out there. When a speaker is driven by a constant voltage source, its frequency response is that which the manufacturer stated it is. When the output impedance becomes signficant, your amp is now behaving like an equalizer and therefore altering the frequency response of your speakers. Whenever you see the words, minimal or no global feedback, your eyes should immediately be looking to cut past all the bullsh*t and be wondering what's happening with the output impedance. It is these perturbations in frequency response, which are tied to the peaks and valleys you see in a speaker's impedance curve, that are responsible for terms like air, presence, midrange bloom, and all that.

b) Distortion also varies with the output level and can often rise to audible levels. Pleasant, even for some.

c) With increases in output level, the overall frequency ranges changes from 20-20K to something less in a non-linear fashion.

While I won't deny that some enjoy the sound of tube based amps, you must realize that they all sound different. A large and substantial part of that difference is because items a-c above are all different amongst the manufacturers. In fact, if you do what's called tube rolling, which is trying different makes of tubes, you'll alter the characteristics of your amp.

In the end you'll have to decide which manufacturer's departure from non-linearity best suits your taste and hope that it applies equally to the various sorts of music that you listen to.

Another approach might be to stick with solid state and simply add an additional unit into the mix that gives you that tube sound and allows you some control over it as well as bypass it completely. Behringer makes such products at a fraction of the price allowing you to experiment or perhaps select the degree of non-linearity you want for a particular musical piece.

 

[Rob Silver]

Tubes, or Valves for the Euro audiophiles are suppose to be more musical, while SS are more analytical. Never heard a tube component before (I should do some auditioning this weekend), maybe because I don't want to deal w/ all the tube rolling and higher costs. Doubt I'd hear the difference, so I'm sticking w/ an all SS setup.

Check out UpscaleAudio.com for rare NOS tubes. I almost bought an Ah! Super Tjoeb 4000 from them, but ended up buying the NAD C542 instead.

 

[Arthur S]

For the price of a relatively modest tube amp you can get a Sunfire. Several of their models have dual speaker outputs. One set is for for the "solid state" sound and the other set is for the "tube sound". Even their HT models, with 5 or 7 channels give you this option on the front 2 channels.

I don't own any Sunfire so I don't have a vested interest. Nor do I own any tube. However, for someone who is seriously interested in tube sound, they can get a solid state amp with all the reliability virtues and still get tube sound if they like it. This is a pretty neat trick that old Bob Carver has come up with. This feature is available on the good old Sunfire Cinema Grand 5 as well as the Cinema Grand 7.

Artie