What's the Deal with the HD Audio Tracks? (2 Viewers)

[Douglas Monce]

The player does the decoding. If your receiver has multi-channel audio connections, (IE and analog RCA connection for each of the channels) you can connect the player directly to your receiver and listen to the HD or DD+ tracks that way.

Doug

 

[ScottBA]

A friend of mine brought over his new Toshiba HD-A2 to hook up my theater (he is trying to convince me to jump in).

We had to make a few connects & disconnects, but finally got it working. HDMI for video and the optical for sound.

He only brought 1 HD-DVD w/ him :frowning: , so we demo'd that. Fast & Furious:Tokyo Drift.

Loaded it up, and started the movie, & cranked the volume a lil.

Receiver (Denon AVR-3806) said DTS on the display. Sound was very engaging and sharp, especially alot of the jap-techno music that plays during the movie. Was it better than any other regular DVD DTS or Superbits we've had before? Hard to tell really? I couldn't find a kbps reading for the DTS the receiver was getting like my Oppo DVD player does, but I would assume it's better than full-bit DTS.

The confusing part was that we didn't hook up the sound via HDMI. Wasn't sure we could...

It worked the way we did it.

 

[RAF]

Let me answer part of your questions. I'm currently running a Toshiba HD-DVD player (XA-1 with Firmware v2) and a PS3 as a Blu-ray player into my Denon 3806 (used as a pre/pro). HDMI1 = HD-DVD and HDMI2 = Blu-ray with the HDMI output going into my DVDO VP50 for any video processing (bringing the Toshiba up to 1080p). Without a doubt, this works like a charm without any additional connections required (audio nor video). In fact, because of a lack of optical inputs available (I'm max'ed out with all the other stuff I have going into the 3806) I was forced to use HDMI for audio for the PS3 when I installed it a few days ago. In other words - with a 3806 and similar units you definitely want to use the sound output from the Toshiba (and/or a Blu-ray player) via HDMI since the 3806 can handle all codecs thrown at it - right up to and including 7.1 if there are any such HD-DVDs. It will also handle TrueHD 5.1 and other full bandwidth audio. Remember, as long as the player is decoding the audio to PCM via HDMI all you need at the receiver or pre/pro end is HDMI 1.1. HDMI 1.3 is only required for advanced audio codec if the pre/pro or receiver is going to to the decoding of the audio codec. This is one of the most common misconceptions about HDMI currently out there (along with thinking that HDMI 1.3 is necessary for 1080p video). HDMI 1.1 is fine in both cases given the situations that I've illustrated.

Both the Toshiba and the PS3 are now capable of decoding any of the latest audio codecs on the discs in up to 7.1 sound and at full resolution and passing it through HDMI as PCM - which can be quite stunning. Unfortunately, there is a lack of 7.1 source material on the HD & BR discs right now (unless I've missed some titles) but TrueHD 5.1 sounds cleaner than all the other options. Interestingly, some of the PS3 games are providing 7.1 sound output as verified by the display on the Denon 3806. For those not familiar with this unit, the Denon display not only shows the output sound graphically by using little labelled boxes all the way up to 8 boxes for 7.1 output (like Dolby Plus IIx 7.1) but also has a similar display for what's coming into the pre-amp. In other words, you have a quick, almost side-by-side, picture of what's coming into and what's going out of the 3806 in terms of sound. Very informative - even from seating distance - since you quickly get to recognize the 7.1 "shape" of the graphic. When I'm using the PS3 in game mode the 3806 usually (can't say for sure if it's universal since I've still not played all the games in my "bundle") shows the incoming sound to be 7.1 - and it sounds amazing. Talk about surround sound in gaming!

Can anyone list any 7.1 titles (either HD-DVD or Blu-ray) that are out there? I have about 40 titles so far and the best I've seen is TrueHD 5.1 - unless I'm missing something.

 

[ScottBA]

Hmmm...I have HDMI 3-switcher from Gefen for 3 HDMI sources, which includes my current Oppo player & my Comcast HD DVR box. I left the 3rd slot open for a future HD DVD player.

Would this work thru a switcher? I cannot do it any other way. The switcher HAS to be used. I only have one HDMI cable running thru the ceiling from the Denon to my projector.

 

[MarekM]

hello RAF

and happy new year to all

here is one nice title with LPCM 7.1

did you checked this ?
http://www.animeondvd.com/reviews2/d...views/5787.php
http://ollin.us/innocence.htm

one question....., I am sure I will post it in few threads.....
I am looking for receiver which can accept LPCM7.1 thru HDMI

from what I searched, here are my picks :

- Pioneer Elite 82TX
- Denon 2307ci
- Sony STR-DA5200ES (not sure with LPCM7.1)
- Onkyo 804
- Yamaha VX-R2700
- Panasonic XR700 (confirmed LPCM7.1)


Marek

 

[MarekM]

I am sure it works.....
switcher is switching HDMI signal, it not changing anything in that signal.....
I have similair situation PAL DVD player, Toshiba HD DVD, soon BR player.... and HD satelite...

later when I will add new receiver with at least 2 other HDMI inputs...

Marek

 

[RAF]

Marek,

Thanks for the lead on the 7.1 title. I haven't been following this too closely so I assumed that by now some of the "mainstream" content would provide a 7.1 audio option for the US market. I guess I jumped the gun a bit with my set-up and now it wants to get fed some 7.1 morsels.



What future HD/BR titles are planned for release with 7.1 audio (if you happen to know) and do you have any time frame?

 

[RAF]

Yes and no, Marek. What you say is generally true as long as you are taking a bunch of HDMI sources and switching them to a single output for display (like a 3x1 switch, etc.) However, it is not necessarily true when you want to take a bunch of HDMI signals and want to switch them to more than one display. I have that exact situation in my home theater where I have a choice of sending the final HDMI output to either my 1080p DLP monitor or my 720p FP. In this case a simple HDMI switch with multiple outputs will not work reliably. What you need in this case is an HDMI repeater, not a simple switch. I know this because I've lived through the horror of a couple of switches that claimed to do the job (multiple HDMI output via switch selection). One is a 2x2 HDMI/HDCP compliant switch from Gefen and the other is a 1x2 module from Accell. Neither of these work reliably and more often than not (over 95% of the time!) I end up with what I call "poltergeist screen" when trying to switch from one to the other. I have to physically remove the power from the switch before it will do the proper handshaking to get the HDMI signal through. Try to add that to a universal remote macro!



Seriously, I've run all sorts of tests to assure that the problem lies within the switches and not within any other equipment in my setup. To reiterate, as long as you are sending a bunch of HDMI signals to a single output (which is probably true for most installations) an HDMI switch will most likely do the job reliably. But don't count on a switch taking HDMI to multiple outputs with any consistency. You need to use a device that constantly polls the outputs and refreshes the HDMI information.

I'm currently working with Jano Banks, the co-inventor of HDMI, in beta testing just such a repeater to make sure that this solves the problem. At the moment the software is being written and I hope to have a beta unit in my hands within a month if things are on schedule. I'll say more when I know more.

 

[Dave_P.]

The Descent BD is 6.1 PCM uncompressed. There's a 7.1 Japanese Blu-Ray title out there. Not sure of any others.

 

[MarekM]

well there is X-MEN3, with 6.1 DTS HD MASTER, I am not aware about other 7.1 or 6.1 title now :frowning:

Marek

 

[RAF]

Yes, I'm finding the purported "7.1" soundtracks that are listed on some sites as being incorrect. For example, after writing my last message to you yesterday I decided to check Widescreen Review to see which titles might include 7.1 output. To my surprise a lot of HD titles were listed as offering "5.1, 6.1 and 7.1" sound when, in fact, they don't. To cite a specific example - Gary Reber's "webzine" claims that The Breakup is in 7.1 sound. It clearly is not and doesn't even claim this on the disc cover. I even checked by putting it in my Toshiba XA-1 (latest firmware) and the HDMI output is definitely not 7.1 but 5.1. I know that my receiver (Denon 3806) is capable of receiving 7.1 via HDMI because the intro music from the PS3 (only connector to the receiver) sounds spectacular and the Denon display indicates 7.1 (PCM) coming in.

What we really need are reliable sources of information regarding which discs offer which codecs and not just information that was either culled (or misinterpreted) from press releases. Whoever put together the Widescreen review list of HD-DVD releases specs clearly didn't actually try the discs out themselves, or at least didn't try to play the 7.1 track.

Gary must be slipping in his old age.

 

[MarekM]

that will be quite hard to find out EACH title how many channels are there :frowning: :frowning: if it will not be CLEAR from any professional review hmm

I am probably going to order that Ghost in the Shell hmm, but price with shipping to slovakia is $70 hehe, sooooooooo I am not sure

there will be possible next nice title in march-april, but even if movie was not received very well, I like visuals and sound..... - FINAL FANTASY 7, so there is also chance for 7.1 soundtrack.........

for now we can dream about LOTR, SW, MATRIX or INDY with 7.1 sound hehe

Marek

 

[Jeff Cooper]

OK, I have a quick 5.1 vs. 7.1 sound question.

On the back of a 7.1 receiver there are outputs for L/R Surround, and L/R Rear surround.

If I only have speakers for a 5.1 sound setup, do I connect the old 5.1 rear surround speakers to the 'L/R Surround' or the 'L/R Rear Surround' outputs on the receiver?

 

[Neil Joseph]

The L/R Surround are for your surround speakers. The L/R Rear surround is for your rear centre surround speaker(s), which should be able to accept either one or two speakers... in my case I have only 1 rear surround speaker at the very back.

 

[RAF]

Adding to what Neil said...

If you are currently contemplating 7.1 surround sound for your system then I would strongly advise going with two rear speakers (L & R). Up until this point there was very little, if any commercial 7.1 source material and a lot of the latest sound consisted of 6.1 surround (meaning the two rear channels actually contained the same signal so you could get the same general effect with a single rear speaker). Those of us with pre/pros or receivers capable of providing 7.1 matrixed (synthesized) sound output need the full seven speakers (+ SW) to get the full effect. For years I used Lexicon's Logic7 from my MC-8 and it sounded great to me. Now many pre/pros and receivers include Dolby Plus IIx which has a 7.1 mode (also matrixing the sound from lesser sources.) However (and this is the important part for those who don't necessarily like sound that has been "created" by processing) some of the newer audio codecs coming out with future HD/BR titles will be 7.1 native (i.e. 7 separate channels) and that's why you want all seven speakers to get the full effect. Right now the only native 7.1 source I have is the PS3 sound from the gaming machine as it starts up and some of the games. I'm still looking for my first commercial 7.1 audio title - but I'm ready for it when it comes.

 

[John Stone]

Until this week I've remained on the outskirts of HD/BD format war. I've been casually watching the drama unfold, all the while promising myself that I would not invest in either technology until there was a clear victor.

The positive reviews of the HD-XA2 finally knocked me off the fence. As someone with a very large existing collection of standard definition DVDs, the XA2's impressive up-converting abilities was the deciding factor in my choice (I am not at all impressed with my Samsung HD960). My new HD-DVD player will be here in a couple of hours.

This thread has been very informative, but I'm still struggling to understand all the new audio formats. I have a specific question with regards to how I should hook up my XA2 to my existing equipment.

First here's what I'm working with: I have the Samsung HL-S6187W 61" 1080p DLP HDTV, and will being sending the video to it via HDMI. My receiver is the Yamaha HTR-5760, which does not have HDMI (I'm tempted to upgrade now, but I'm going to be patient and wait until I can buy a receiver with HDMI 1.3). I have a full 7.1 speaker setup, and I use Dolby PLIIx to fire up the rear surrounds.

As I understand it, the best (highest quality) connection option with my existing equipment would be to run analog out from the XA2 to my receiver. Is this correct? Will I also need a digital connection for standard def. DVDs with legacy DD/DTS soundtracks, or will they be d/a converted and sent over the analog out with no problem? Can I still use PLIIx with this scenario? Any other thoughts?

Sorry about the basic questions--I'm still digesting all this new stuff!

 

[Jimjum27]

I have a 7.1 setup using a Kenwood 6.1 receiver and an old Yamaha receiver powering my rears. I've been struggling with John's issue of how best to use my current speakers with the Toshiba's abilities and have yet to discover a satisfactory answer.
To get TrueHD I have settled for simply using the 5.1 analog input and not using the rears for HD DVDs. And because my A1 cannot properly decode the 6.1 tracks on my SDs, I run them through a standard DVD player to hear them in 6.1 discrete and matrix 5.1 to 7.1. Since I don't have an HDMI input on my projector I'm not losing any upconversion. I don't believe I can run analog and bitstream out of the Toshiba at the same time, and if I could, my receiver doesn't show that it is receiving a 6.1 signal.
If one of the many intelligent individuals in this forum have a great idea on how to solve this problem, please let me know. There are many of us who would love our sound to match the quality of our HD images.
Also, I was told that HD DVD players will not have 7.1 capabilities in the foreseeable future. Why are we teased with commercials raving about 7.1 sound when it is not being implemented? That's really just a rhetorical question born out of frustration.
Thanks.

 

[Karim Nogas]

Before I get too excited, my 9 year old Denon AVR-3200 has 6CH EXT. IN. I've never used these connections, opting for a coaxial connection to the DVD player.

Could I connect each of the 6CH EXT. IN connections to a HD/BR player, let the player do the decoding, and experience lossless audio?

Not holding my breath, but it would be cool if that was possible.

 

[RAF]

Tonight I watched a Blu-ray movie (not critically acclaimed but a great example of a very nice uncompressed 5.1 sound track) - Walt Disney's Haunted Mansion. I had an opportunity to do an A/B comparison on my PS3 and the display was able to tell me the audio bit rates employed.

Let's just say that there was no comparison! The uncompressed 5.1 soundtrack was transmitting at a whopping 6.9 Mbps compared to the "normal" 5.1 soundtrack at 640Kbps. The difference in the clarity of the sound was truly ear-opening (as it should be at over 10 times the sonic resolution). I know I've been harping on this for some time, but if you haven't had the opportunity to listen to uncompressed ("lossless") audio you owe it to yourself to try to find a way to audition it. You will never be satisfied with "regular" sound again.

Amazing.

 

[Edwin-S]

My ears must be going. I was watching "V For Vendetta" on HD DVD. The disc has a Dolby TrueHD track and DD+. I would flip back and forth between the two and I found that the TrueHD track sounded like it had somewhat more defined highs; however, I did not find the difference to be as earth shattering as others are indicating. The DD+ still sounded almost as good and seemed to be slightly louder than the TrueHD track. I would listen to the TrueHD track if given a choice between TrueHD and DD+, but the TrueHD track did not completely blow me away.