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What we are up against... (1 Viewer)

Bill Catherall

Screenwriter
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Aug 1, 1997
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1,560
Hmmm...this thread started out as "up against J6P." Turns out that we're also up against some of our own membership...

I dont even like P&S but I will fight to the death for thier right to view it.
So what have you done to fight for J6P's "right" to have a P&S Matrix, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace, Goonies, or Superman on DVD? Those were all OAR only releases with little or no backlash for not having a P&S release available.

Again, I ask, what is wrong with eliminating P&S completely? No harm will come of it. People who don't like it will just learn to accept it. Movies won't get butchered. It will become normal. There's so much to be gained.

I defend the fight for OAR only releases. Why? Because it shows the studios, in no uncertain terms, what our preferences are. If it results in either, all releases in OAR with an occasional dual release, or all releases in OAR with no P&S then I will be one happy camper. It really can't hurt.
 

Jim A. Banville

Supporting Actor
Joined
Jun 20, 1999
Messages
630
This whole idea that if J6P doesn't like OAR, that he should give up his DVD player and stick to VHS is so pompous, arrogant and EXTREMIST as to be completely ridiculous. One reason Digital Versatile Disc was created (other than as a removable high capacity storage medium for digital data) was for the higher quality audio and video presentation of movies vs. lower quality and cumbersome videotape. It also provided the ability to have alot of special features such as multiple languages, etc. I seriously doubt the engineers over at Toshiba were thinking, "Hey, the studios better only release movies in their OAR when we license this technology to them!". LOL :)
DVD provides a lot of benefits over VHS. Joe Shmoe shouldn't have to give up all the other benefits of DVD just because he either doesn't care about the artisitic intent of the framing of a particular scene in a movie, or he likes to use the entire screen on his relatively small TV vs. a thin sliver down the middle of it. The engineers who created DVD technology did realize that people had choices as to how the wish to watch their movies, so they incorporated in the players the ability to size the film based on what aspect ratio TV you had. It's up to Hollywood to come through and provide both camps, OAR and P&S, the ability to watch movies in the aspect that please both, without excluding one or the other. As I stated before, I prefer OAR. But many people I know who aren't "film afficiandos", but merely enjoy being entertained by America's second favorite pastime for 2 hours at the time, prefer to use their entire 4:3 TV screen (which they will surely own for the next 10 to 15 years - "normal" people don't upgrade their TV as much as we do) to watch a movie. They deserve the ability, as a consumer that is no less a human being than I, to do just that. They also deserve all the other benefits of DVD over VHS that we enjoy. I suggest any opinion contrary to that is, as stated before, is arrogant, pompous and extremist...heck, it's un-American!
 

Bill Catherall

Screenwriter
Joined
Aug 1, 1997
Messages
1,560
It's up to Hollywood to come through and provide both camps, OAR and P&S, the ability to watch movies in the aspect that please both, without excluding one or the other.
There would be no problem if they did just that. But they don't. The problem is that some studios seem to classify OAR as an "enthusiast's" format. So some titles, because of some silly reason or another, don't get released in their OAR. Thus, something needs to be changed to prevent this from happening. That's why the "extremists" are here talking about it. That's why it's such a hot topic that it generates many threads on the subject. We're trying to get to the root of the problem and find a solution that satisfies everybody.
 

Rick Deschaine

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Feb 29, 2000
Messages
193
I'd like to emphasize what Bill said. No matter how you look at it, the real problem is not the existence of Pan & Scan, but that we as enthusiasts, are now beginning to not be able to find certain OAR DVD's, whether to buy, or more commonly to rent. To me that is inexcusable; as it is to everyone on this forum. Personally, I could care less if Pan & Scan exists or not, but I do care whether I can watch a movie in OAR or not. That's all I ask.
When some poor schmoe has a 19" TV and is watching a 2.35;1 aspect ratio DVD, maybe it might be more beneficial for him/her to see it in Pan & Scan instead. Remember that image is going to look really small especially if the TV is in a large room. Who am I to judge whether he/she prefers that or not. :confused:
But don't take away the option of OAR! That is what we are really fighting against.
Later, Rick
 

Anthony_H

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Apr 27, 2000
Messages
231
Location
Sherman Texas
Real Name
Anthony
Someone earlier mentioned that there should be an additional charge for P&S....well..... (flame suit on).... why not? If I'm not mistaken...don't the studios have to pay an individual or group to take the reel...pan here..scan here ...to digitally master a pan-and-scan version of a film? It probably isn't inexpensive. Why not pass that cost onto the P&S fans?
 

Justin Lane

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2000
Messages
2,149
Someone earlier mentioned that there should be an additional charge for P&S....well..... (flame suit on).... why not? If I'm not mistaken...don't the studios have to pay an individual or group to take the reel...pan here..scan here ...to digitally master a pan-and-scan version of a film? It probably isn't inexpensive. Why not pass that cost onto the P&S fans?
Do a search there was a recent thread closed on this same issue because it got off topic quite quickly. There are some good points made in that thread before it went south.

I still don't understand why people are getting all bent out of shape in this thread. NOT ONE person has posted anything but being Pro-OAR. I think the main argument revoles around shoving views down others throats, when they are not accepting.

Here is a very novel idea...if someone is vehement about only allowing OAR and promoting the benefits of OAR why not stand outside of your local Wal-Mart or Blockbuster and hand out pamphlets on the benefits, instead of arguing and posting insults about what you have witnessed here with other OAR SUPPORTERS.

I challange everyone proclaiming these views to put their money where their mouth is.

(If you are too busy to do this a few times a week, I understand. Probably the same people you call "J6P" outside of these stores are busy themselves. I bet they go in and only rent or purchase once and awhile for enjoyment and diversion a film offers never worrying about OAR. Hmm... maybe they are not so different from us afterall when it is all said and done)

J
 

Ronald Epstein

Founder
Owner
Moderator
Senior HTF Member
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Jul 3, 1997
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66,549
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Ronald Epstein
WARNING

Let me make this CLEAR, as I have been receiving
complaints about behavior in this thread....
Home Theater Forum supports DVDs presented
in its Original Aspect Ratio. Anyone coming to
this forum to argue the merits of Pan & Scan is
not welcome here
Furthermore....
Despite what has been said earlier in this thread....
We are in GRAVE danger of losing WIDESCREEN
entirely to the P&S public.
The studios are under immense pressure to stop
putting out WIDESCREEN movies. Stores like WALMART,
K-MART and COSCO will not even carry WIDESCREEN
DVD product.
I have heard from more than 3 studio excecutives
directly that they are under pressure to stop putting
out widescreen product.

FURTHERMORE.......

I don't see why people are getting upset about
the studios putting out BOTH a WIDESCREEN and P&S
version of a DVD, either on the same disc or
separately. As long as we get a widescreen version,
why is everyone concerned?
I am not saying MY opinion is the correct one
on this issue, but obviously the debate has caused
much grief in this thread.

FINALLY.......

These insults will stop IMMEDIATELY. We will
remove anyone that cannot politely debate this
issue hereonin.
 

Justin Lane

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2000
Messages
2,149
I don't see why people are getting upset about

the studios putting out BOTH a WIDESCREEN and P&S

version of a DVD, either on the same disc or

separately. As long as we get a widescreen version,

why is everyone concerned?
Finally a resonable view. People can continue to play devil's advocate saying just allowing P&S could cause the end of OAR, but the reality is no one is a fortune teller. The studios know how much money we spend on discs, and we all know they are in the business to make money. I just can't see them totally doing away with an entire portion of their market. Sacrifices may have to be made, such as less extras etc., but if it means continuing to get our films in OAR I am all for it.

J
 

Sean Conklin

Screenwriter
Joined
Oct 30, 2000
Messages
1,720
Ok whats going on here? First let's address Butch:
Butch said:
This whole idea that if J6P doesn't like OAR, that he should give up his DVD player and stick to VHS is so pompous, arrogant and EXTREMIST as to be completely ridiculous.
Well, it's ridiculous that I/we cannot view some of our favorites because they are P&S only!
I think we can agree that we "extreme OAR" and OAR supporters in general have one goal, and that is to have every single DVD release available to us in uncompromised high quality OAR(with NO EXCEPTIONS)! If we could achieve this, then (I'll say this for the second time)we OAR "extremists" could look the other way on P&S and could give a rats ass about the way the "average consumer" wants to view their movies.
 

Sean Conklin

Screenwriter
Joined
Oct 30, 2000
Messages
1,720
I think we can agree that we "extreme OAR" and OAR supporters in general have one goal, and that is to have every single DVD release available to us in uncompromised high quality OAR(with NO EXCEPTIONS)! If we could achieve this, then (I'll say this for the second time)we OAR "extremists" could look the other way on P&S and could give a rats ass about the way the "average consumer" wants to view their movies.
In other words everyone would be happy, and we can have OAR to our hearts content and "Mr. and Mrs. average consumer" can have P&S to their hearts content.

I know "average film viewer" is my doctor, my lawyer, my family,my friends, everyone is a J6P in some shape or form. I mean no disrespect to anyone. But I will fight the good fight, to one day have all DVD releases in OAR!
 

Peter Kim

Screenwriter
Joined
Jun 18, 2001
Messages
1,577
Jim Banville,

I don't believe I've denigrated anyone in this thread. I don't see insults or name-calling in any of my 3 posts. You, however, have included the following, to name a few:

Arrogant, pompous, extremist, OAR Nazi, '...what are you smoking...', etc.

Again, I've only expressed my beliefs, certainly imbued with passion. So it's with great irony that I point out a passage in your last post:

'...heck, it's un-American! '

You've used diatribe and vitriol, along with insults and insinuations, yet I'm un-American?!!! Is the irony not self-evident?
 

cafink

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Apr 19, 1999
Messages
3,044
Real Name
Carl Fink
I don't see why people are getting upset about

the studios putting out BOTH a WIDESCREEN and P&S

version of a DVD, either on the same disc or

separately. As long as we get a widescreen version,

why is everyone concerned?
The problem isn't dual-format releases. The problem is that a lot of releases are pan and scan ONLY.
 

Sean Conklin

Screenwriter
Joined
Oct 30, 2000
Messages
1,720
I don't see why people are getting upset about

the studios putting out BOTH a WIDESCREEN and P&S

version of a DVD, either on the same disc or

separately. As long as we get a widescreen version,

why is everyone concerned?
Separately? YES! Same disc? questionable, sometimes video and audio bitrates can be compromised because of the inclusion of P&S.

I will no longer be an extremist IF EVERY DVD release has a OAR version with the same quality as a OAR only release! Which would probably be separate releases.

If this is how we can have OAR on every release, then so be it!

Now let's convince somebody with some pull!!

Am I to understand LOTR may be released in P&S only?! Please tell me this isn't true! Because if it is, I will become more than "extremist".
 

Thomas Newton

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Messages
2,303
Real Name
Thomas Newton
It would be nice if the studios and stores would flip the default for VHS.

That is, take most of the VHS section and fill it up with stuff that is in OAR (letterboxed movies or 4:3 TV shows). Put the Pan-and-Scan tapes in a special section (like the widescreen tapes have today), with warning stickers about how they cut off part of the movie.
 

cafink

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Messages
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Carl Fink
Separately? YES! Same disc? questionable, sometimes video and audio bitrates can be compromised because of the inclusion of P&S.
I find your position interesting, because as a fellow rabid-OAR supporter, I'm just the opposite. I don't mind both formats on a single disc at all, but I'm a bit iffy about separate releases.

It's like this: I don't care at all what Joe Sixpack wants on his DVDs. I ONLY care about proper OAR releases. When both formats are on the same disc, then I can go to the store and pick it up without worrying about screen format. But when there are two separate releases, I must go out of my way to seek out the widescreen version. A lot of stores don't carry widescreen discs at all, or charge more for them. And it's a complete nightmare trying to find a widescreen DVD for rent! I don't like to buy movies I haven't seen, so that last point is a big issue for me. If there was only a single release — be it widescreen-only or dual-format, because I don't care — it wouldn't be a problem.
 

Sean Conklin

Screenwriter
Joined
Oct 30, 2000
Messages
1,720
Ronald Epstein: I takes me so long to peck out my posts that I missed yours before I posted.

Are we really in That GRAVE of danger of losing OAR? I didn't realize it was THAT bad!

If this is the case I agree with your statement:
I don't see why people are getting upset about

the studios putting out BOTH a WIDESCREEN and P&S

version of a DVD, either on the same disc or

separately. As long as we get a widescreen version,

why is everyone concerned?

I am not saying MY opinion is the correct one

on this issue, but obviously the debate has caused

much grief in this thread
If it's a possibility we could lose OAR altogether, then I agree with your opinion! I can certainly live with this option as opposed to the alternative!

Now I'm scared.
 

Sean Conklin

Screenwriter
Joined
Oct 30, 2000
Messages
1,720
Carl Fink: You have a good point!

If this will ensure OAR on every release, I'm with you!

I really have no beef with dual sided releases. In fact I will promote it if it will help our cause. Maybe I better settle down and join the bandwagon with the best chance of preserving OAR!
 

Peter Kim

Screenwriter
Joined
Jun 18, 2001
Messages
1,577
Question is, realistically, how much of a compromise can be made? This becomes the paradox.

On one hand, if a dual-release strategy is widely adopted, and this ensures 1-to-1 availability, which results in the continuation of the OAR format, fine. I can live with it.

However, those few titles (though increasing in #) that are released in dual-format currently,...stores like Blockbuster, Target, and Walmart are currently defaulting to the P&S option only.

Therefore, by making all titles dual release, does that not increase the potential that these category killer chains will strictly stock only the P&S format? An example scenario...Blockbuster does not carry a single title in OAR format for rent at all.

I guess what I've seen so far is this - give 'em an inch, and they've taken it all up.
 

Justin Lane

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2000
Messages
2,149
To name one, you, Justin. In the spectrum of any cause celebre, two extremes exist. The extreme you appear to contest is that of anti-p&s (aka the abolotion of p&s, and "...shoving my views down others throats...". Relative to this viewpoint, you could be considered sympathetic, no?
Referring to me as a P&S supporter when I posed my question as to who in this thread supported P&S. I did not fly off the handle, and let you have your opinion however unbased in reality it was becuase it was your opinion and I respect that.

J
 

BrianShort

Supporting Actor
Joined
Jan 18, 2000
Messages
931
Thought I'd chime in to this discussion with some of my observations of the stores here. Our only discount store here is Wal-Mart, and the last time I was there, they had a massive Grinch display out, with both the Widescreen and Pan and Scan versions of the DVD.

I went to Blockbuster today to rent Moulin Rouge, and decided to check out a couple titles that have dual versions. BB only had the Full Screen version of The Grinch, but Jurassic Park 3 and The Mummy Returns were both Widescreen only. I'd seen some comments saying that Blockbuster wont carry the widescreen version if there are 2 versions available... maybe this is just in the corporate stores? The store here is a franchise store. It had both versions of The Grinch for sale. I didnt check to see what versions of JP3 or TMR were for sale, but I'd imagine both were available.

The studios are under immense pressure to stop

putting out WIDESCREEN movies. Stores like WALMART,

K-MART and COSCO will not even carry WIDESCREEN

DVD product.
I'm confused here... it sounds like you're saying they wont carry ANY widescreen products, even if it's the only version available. The Wal-Mart here sure has plenty of widescreen titles, even if two versions are available. Did you mean to say that they wont carry widescreen versions of a Pan & Scan version is available?

Dont WS titles outsell P&S titles anyway? I thought I remember seeing the sales figures for Hannibal and way more people were buying the widescreen version.
 

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