What Is The Deal with These "Lossless" New HD Audio Formats? I'm Not Impressed... (1 Viewer)

[Douglas Monce]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I've had the feeling that much of this compression comes from the fact that more and more people are primarily listening to music in their cars, and need it compressed because of the noisy environment.

Personally I think the idea of compressing music like that is wrongheaded. Put a dynamic compressor on the car stereo and be done with it.

I agree with you completely about a film soundtrack. Having a wide dynamic range is another tool at the film makers command, and they should learn to use it effectively rather than just constantly blasting the audience at ear bleed level.

Doug

Doug

 

[brap]

Personally, I predict that PCM will not be used for very much longer. So there really isn't anything to be concerned about. The DTS-MA and Dobly TrueHD are lossless codecs. PCM is used for compatibility sake on the players. Soon all these codecs will be supported and they take up much less space.
I know BD has a vast amount of space, but every bit counts when it comes to long movies with a lot of extras. This could make 1 whole disc of difference when it comes to TV box sets.

 

[Dave H]

I'm currently using digital optical for my HD-A2 and PS3 with a (non HDMI) Yamaha HTR-5890 receiver and Infinity Beta speakers (which I'm happy with). I've been thinking about replacing it, however, I'm not willing to spend more than 1K on a new receiver. I just wonder if it takes higher end equip. to really appreciate the lossless audio. This is one reason why I've been holding off from buying a receiver which will probably have very little to no improvement in amp quality over my existing receiver.

 

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

"Your installer is correct. The player should be set to bitstream so that your Onkyo can decode Dolby Digital+ DD True HD DTS Master Audio, and standard Dolby Digital & DTS."

Right, Doug; and I was aware of this, too, that bitstream is the setting for sending raw information to a receiver for onboard decoding. Those above are all set to Bitstream.

"The odd ball is the PCM and I'm fairly sure that the player has to be set to PCM to pass it through the HDMI cable as a lossless signal. I believe if the player is set to bitstream it will convert the PCM to a high bit rate DTS or maybe just standard Dolby Digital."

But WHAT exactly gets set to PCM in the audio setup menu of the player? There are ONLY selections for Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DD+ I believe, DTS, and DTS-HD, but no selection for outputting PCM tracks....

"For simplicity sake I would choose Dolby Digital True HD or DTS master audio when ever possible"

Unfortunately, some titles like Pirates only offer the uncompressed PCM track...

"just so you don't have to switch the players settings all the time. Both True HD and DTS MA should be identical to the PCM track once it is uncompressed for playback"

Unfortunately, my Panny player does not pass DTS Master Audio at all, even via Bitstream, so I wont even have that to compare the PCM tracks to.

 

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

"When I hear people bitching about a track saying it's low, that to me is often a GOOD sign as there is headroom in the track."

Yes, Dave, I know all about overcompression and creating a track that's too hot and maxed into the red meters --- but the levels on these HD tracks were ridiculously low compared to DVD, and this concerned me.

 

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

"Because the new formats have a bit more dynamic range (the difference between the quietest and the loudest sounds), they may be engineered so that they'll have somewhat less volume when you use your normal volume setting."

Bob,

See, I was not under the assumption of what you detail above when buying into this Blu ray technology; I was under the impression that "uncompressed" PCM tracks and "lossless" audio almost guaranteed a louder, more visceral in-your-face bombardment presentation as compared to DVD -- and this wasn't the case. I am almost sorry for buying into it.

"I'd suggest you turn up the volume so that dialog levels are similar to what you're used to. I think you'll then find that quiet sounds are not only quieter but clearer, and loud sounds will easily paste you against the back wall. (I'm assuming your system designer configured equipment that will handle the potential blast.)"

Indeed, he did configure it with me to play that way -- but I did not care for the idea of needing to turn the volume up BEYOND what I was normally using for standard DVD tracks after I thought THOSE were mastered a bit too low on certain releases, as well; I mean, Pirates' PCM track was pretty soft in output, as was Fantastic 4's downmixed core DTS mix. Not as bad as Pirates, though.

"As other posters have said, it's not about consistently higher volume levels, it is about increased dynamic range and clarity.

I hear this improvement consistently in HD DVD releases, and not just in the Dolby TrueHD tracks. The improvement is obvious to me in the Dolby Digital Plus tracks, too."

I have not had a chance to sample any Dolby Plus tracks yet as no software in the collection yet boasts a track like that, nor have I heard a TrueHD mix.

 

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

Jeff,

Now THIS concerns me as well, as it may be the core of the problem. Man, I just dont want to deal with a firmware upgrade now; I didnt even get a chance to play with most of this gear yet. But what EXACTLY should be set to get a PCM track from these discs sent to the receiver -- is it set in Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, what? All those in my menu are set to BITSTREAM....

Can someone please help with this question?

 

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

"I think Nick's problem with this particular movie is the PCM setup on his Panny player. The installer did the right thing by bitstreaming *most* of the audio codecs but for uncompressed PCM, you are going to want to PCM it and not bitstream."

Thank you Jason as this is getting to the issue a little better now -- but WHAT exactly is set to PCM in the menu? You say "for uncompressed PCM, you are going to want to PCM it..." but WHAT exactly gets changed to PCM -- Dolby Digital, DTS, TrueHD.....which one gets changed to PCM to listen to the uncompressed tracks?

"That should make a difference. The Panny won't bitstream TrueHD or DTS HR either so PCM those as well."

This Panny player does in fact send TrueHD and DTS-HD (NOT Master Audio) via Bitstream.

"The DMP-BD10A doesn't have the capability to bitstream those codecs. The only BD player right now that can is the Samsung 1400."

I have the ability to send these tracks bitstream to a receiver according to my menu's setup.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

Well you can certainly set those tracks to bitstream in the setup menu, what is happening is it is downconverting the Lossless to non-Lossless and then bitstreaming that downconverted audio to the reciever. The only way you will get full lossless from those tracks is to set them to PCM.

 

[Southpaw]

Can anyone else confirm that the Panny sends TrueHD via bitstream? I don't think it does but I'm not 100% sure. I thought HDMI 1.3 was needed for this. We'll see what others say about this because I don't believe it bitstreams that codec.
Now I know it sends it as PCM because a firmware update a couple of months ago allowed for this.
Set DD to PCM. That is the one I was referring to when I said to "PCM those uncompressed tracks". I actually set everything to PCM even though I have a 1.3 AVR (Pioneer elite) because I *thought* the Panny didn't bitstream TrueHD. Anyway, set DD to PCM (in the player's setup menu) for all those BD discs that have uncompressed PCM tracks.

Edit: I just saw Jeff's post above mine. He confirms what I said. You can't bitstream TrueHD or DTS-HD. But you can PCM it. So pretty much set everything to PCM on the player's audio settings. All the next gen players will most likely be able to bitstream those codecs as 1.3 is needed.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

There's only been one remix/remaster that has really impressed me in the last couple of years in terms of quality, and that's The Beatles:LOVE. Fantastic dynamic range, and not mastered "hot". I bought the deluxe version with the DVD Audio disc, and the 5.1 mixes are great. Other newer releases I've bought, like OK GO's Oh No or Lily Allen's Alright, Still have been boosted and compressed to the point of distortion.

 

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

Uh-oh.....now this is what I didn't want to hear....and hence the reason I specifically purchased the TX-SR604 with onboard next gen audio decoding, 1080P passthrough and 1.3a HDMI....Jesus.....but again, I have a problem because IF I pass everything through PCM, this means the Dolby Digital and DTS tracks on standard DVDs are not going to be decoded by the receiver and thus what is the point of having this new receiver? I could have kept my old TX-SR600 instead, with onboard DD and DTS decoding and stuck with standard DVD; are you guys SURE none of these tracks from the Blu ray discs are being sent via the Panny bitstream at all? I mean, there IS a bitstream setting in the menu, and the manual clearly states that the ONLY format not supported or passed by the machine is DTS Master Audio. Therefore, I thought all other tracks can be passed via bitstream -- Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, etc....am I understanding one of the above poster's comments that said these settings of bitstream could indeed BE MADE, but the player is not actually SENDING a complete, pure digital signal with DTS HD, Dolby TrueHD, etc, and doing "something else" to the signal? This is not what I got out of the manual readings.

So EVERY setting should be set to PCM? Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, DTS-HD? Are there any Blu ray discs that support Dolby Digital Plus?

And one other question: are the DTS and Dolby Digital signals passed from standard DVDs via HDMI of the same quality and sonic characteristic as if they were passed via optical or coaxial?

 

[Southpaw]

Nick...I believe there are some BD discs that do have DD+...I'm thinking of the Warner titles that don't have TrueHD. They most likely are only 640 though and not the full 1.5. Most Sony and Disney titles are uncompressed PCM and Fox uses the DTS-HD MA of course.
For SD DVD I guess you could manually go in and change your settings to bitstream and then switch it back to PCM for a BD if you want.
Anyone else have any suggestions?

 

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

Yes, but Jason, this would seem exhausting and completely redundant to me; I cant see needing to go into the menu for each disc that is played and needing to change the bitstream/PCM signals...and then, what about titles like from Fox, which have the DTS Master Audio tracks on them, but when going bitstream from a Blu ray disc player like my Panny, you're going to hear the core DTS mix, which sounded okay I suppose when I played Fantastic 4, but, still......jeez.....this whole thing is making me kick myself for buying into HD....

*SIGH*.....Damn.....can anyone else confirm that every single sound format output on the Panasonic Blu ray player needs to be set to PCM to enjoy ANY high definition soundtrack?

Here is another issue....I have heard and seen online at Onkyo's website that there is a problem with early-generation TX-SR604s regarding not being able to decode any of the new HD audio formats and that a software upgrade was needed -- but it's supposed to only be in the first models that rolled off the line, and I just purchased mine....has anyone had any problems with the TX-SR604, those of you who own one?

The main issue here is that I cant, according to folks on this board, pass any high definition track from a Blu ray disc in bitstream format -- EVEN THOUGH when I play titles with Uncompressed PCM 5.1 tracks like Pirates of the Caribbean, the display on my receiver lights up "MULTICHANNEL" with the PCM and HDMI indicators at the same time....so it seems it may be working right, no?

 

[Michael Reuben]

Nick, I've read through this thread and skimmed your other threads on the audio, and it's interesting how people can drive themselves crazy overthinking things. Here's a very simple course of action that I heartily recommend:

1. Leave your PCM/Bitstream settings where your installer set them. They're irrelevant anyway, because they only affect the digital audio output (coax and optical) on the Panasonic, and you're using HDMI.
2. Adjust the volume as appropriate for the source. Forget about what volume levels are appropriate for other sources.
3. Do not worry about the exact nature of the digital data being sent by the Panasonic to the Onkyo. Whatever it is, it's the best that's available at this time.
4. Get rid of your expectations of how film soundtracks "should" sound. Listen to how they do sound. The problem here isn't in your equipment or your settings. The problem is, in the most literal sense, in your head. You were expecting something that was never there in the first place.

M.

 

[Mike Frezon]

I have been enjoying (and learning a lot) from this thread of Nick's (and his others). I think Michael makes several good points in that last post.

And, Nick...congratulations on adopting the HTF's "quote" function in your posts. They are much easier to read than the way you were quoting other members before. Your longer posts were getting very difficult to read.

 

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

Thank You For Your Thoughts, Michael....

While I completely and utterly understand what you are getting at in terms of "listening to what's there" and that it's simply what is "available at this moment," there are a couple of things which concern me in this thread (and thank you for taking the time to read through the other posts)...

Most notably is my concern regarding this statement you make:

"Leave your PCM/Bitstream settings where your installer set them. They're irrelevant anyway, because they only affect the digital audio output (coax and optical) on the Panasonic, and you're using HDMI."

Now, I'm a bit confused here, as every single setting on the Panasonic Blu ray player is set to Bitstream -- that is, all Dolby and DTS contingents -- and yet, even connected via HDMI, I STILL get decoding from the Onkyo for standard Dolby Digital and DTS on regular DVDs....so the bitstream signal IS somehow being passed for at least standard def discs. You say the bitstream settings only affect the coax and optical outputs, but this can't be so in that I am running via HDMI and still getting the display of my receiver to read "DTS" or "Dolby D" or "Multichannel PCM" etc, indicating the receiver is decoding the track on the disc via bitstream depending on what track I select from the disc's menu....follow? So something is hooked up right somewhere; I'm just getting confused now because some say set the player to PCM, some say bitstream, and all I know is that we need bitstream to hear the Dolby Digital and DTS streams from the player (unless you want the player to decode the formats; I didn't buy a new next-gen receiver for that, though)...

 

[Nick Chavez Beverly Hills]

Thank you Mike for enthusiastically enjoying and following this hi rez audio discussion; I am positive I am not the first poor soul to be confused the hell out of regarding this new technology.

With, though, regard to your statement that Michael makes several good points in his post, are you referring to the parts where he references my need to just listen to the tracks and not worry about where the volume control is set at in relation to standard DVDs? See, this is why I specifically bought into high definition in the first place, really: to hear these new supposed "lossless" codecs and the "uncompressed" audio tracks which I thought would be much louder and more forceful in output compared to DVD's Dolby Digital and DTS...with regard to Michael's other statement about the bistream issue, I am still having a difficult time understanding why the HDMI outputs are irrelevant in terms of bitstream flow; all the standard DVD audio tracks are being passed, it seems, just fine via HDMI to the receiver for decoding, as the would via optical or coax.....so why are they irrelevant right now? Can you shed more light on this?

 

[Mike Frezon]

No. I can't.

Part three on Michael's list is the hardest for me to understand, too. I am just in the process of hooking up a Blu-ray player to my modest HT which has no HDMI in either the receiver or HDTV. So I am learning many of the same things as you but from a different perspective.

The way I understand it, my only option of approaching the lossless audio will be to connect my player and receiver via the analog 5.1 jacks on each machine. It seems rather backward on first reading, but even though the audio seems pretty darn good via my coaxial connection, I am still going to try it because of my desire (just like you!) to appreciate the excellence contained in those superior audio tracks.

And, yes. I am pretty confused by it all, too. We're learning together...along with many others, I suppose.

 

[Shane Martin]

False. You proved it earlier when DTS MA discs didn't show DTS MA on your receiver.

I think the "Lossless, big deal?" aspect of your post is due to being improperly setup.

The only 2 players capable of bitstream are the Pioneer Elite and the Samsung BDP1400.