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What frequency should my ports be tuned to?

Discussion in 'Mobile Phones / Entertainment' started by eryn shannon, Jun 8, 2004.

  1. eryn shannon

    eryn shannon Well-Known Member

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    I am building a subwoofer box for my vw jetta. I will be putting 3 Alpine Type R subwoofers in it powered by the 1000W Alpine mrdm1000 amp. I calculated the internal box volume to be about 3.5ft2. I would like to use slot ports. My questions are how many ports should I use, and what frequency should I tune the ports to? Thanks!
     
  2. David.G

    David.G Well-Known Member

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    well if you have 3 subs you need 3 ports. Where did you get the plans for the box? IMO, you should never have subs sharing the same internal space. I'd seperate them to their own chambers with seperate ports for each one. If you do seperate them into 3chambers with the box you have you're looking at 1cu ft per sub. Thats enough for a sealed box which will do quite well for your subs. A ported box only allows for louder output but cuts into SQ. with 3 subs you really don't need more output since really its air movement that counts and you have 3 subs. 10" subs=30in of air movement. 12"=36in. Thats more than enough for any system. I'd seal them into seperate chambers but if you want to stay ported you'll need a new box. Considering that a ported box requires more internal volume than a sealed box does.
     
  3. eryn shannon

    eryn shannon Well-Known Member

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    The 3.52cu ft is the volume I calculated for a ported box. I got this figure by using the theile-small parameters for the sub (Qts=.41, Fs=30Hz, Vas=1.02cu ft). I haven't built the box yet but for a sealed box the sub works best in a 0.5-.08cu ft box according to alpine. If I do go with a sealed box should it be on the high or low side of this range. The volume I calculated for a sealed box are close to 0.5cu ft per driver, which seems kind of small for me. Why when you talk about air movement why do you only measure the size of the sub? A 12" sub is only 2" bigger than a 10" sub but it has much more surface area, which I think is the important factor in air movement. I don't think 5 10" subs, 50" of air movement have greater output than 4 12" subs, 48" of air movement. However the surface area of 4 12" subs is much greater than that of 5 10" subs.
     
  4. eryn shannon

    eryn shannon Well-Known Member

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    The 3.52cu ft is the volume I calculated for a ported box. I got this figure by using the theile-small parameters for the sub (Qts=.41, Fs=30Hz, Vas=1.02cu ft). I haven't built the box yet but for a sealed box the sub works best in a 0.5-.08cu ft box according to alpine. If I do go with a sealed box should it be on the high or low side of this range. The volume I calculated for a sealed box are close to 0.5cu ft per driver, which seems kind of small for me. Why when you talk about air movement why do you only measure the size of the sub? A 12" sub is only 2" bigger than a 10" sub but it has much more surface area, which I think is the important factor in air movement. I don't think 5 10" subs, 50" of air movement have greater output than 4 12" subs, 48" of air movement. However the surface area of 4 12" subs is much greater than that of 5 10" subs.
     
  5. brentl

    brentl Well-Known Member

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    If you plan on drving this hard go for a sealed box, it's MUCH harder to overdrive the subs in a sealed box.

    You should still get PLENTY of output.

    Tune your port at the point where you want the most output. remember that the resonant frequency of the car will have a large effect on output in that range.

    You could also have a problem with port length depending on youy tuning frequency

    B
     
  6. brentl

    brentl Well-Known Member

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    If you plan on drving this hard go for a sealed box, it's MUCH harder to overdrive the subs in a sealed box.

    You should still get PLENTY of output.

    Tune your port at the point where you want the most output. remember that the resonant frequency of the car will have a large effect on output in that range.

    You could also have a problem with port length depending on youy tuning frequency

    B
     
  7. Dave Milne

    Dave Milne Well-Known Member

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    Eryn,
    You're on the right track. Use the T/S params and calculations (or preferably a computer simulation program --there are a number of freeware programs out there) to determine what response shape you will get in various configurations. Some of the better programs have the option of simulating cabin gain to give you an accurate picture of in-car response. YOU decide what response shape works best for you.

    Yes, vented alignments are easier to overdrive and "bottom" --especially if driven with significant content below Fb (system resonance). But they will typically have more output at low frequencies, so you shouldn't have to push them as hard. Again, simulation software will give you a plot of maximum acoustic power output for a given alignment.

    I don't have the Alpine Type R woofer in my database, so I plugged the parameters you gave into BassBox 6.0. For maximally flat vented alignment (B4), it shows 0.88 cubic feet with Fb of 27.79 and F3 of 31.47. This is not a bad alignment and should fit nicely in a car. You're right in that the sealed alignments for this woofer are tiny and sub-optimal. The maximally flat (B2 Q=0.707) alignment is 0.25 cubic feet with F3 over 63 Hz.

    So I'd go vented with 0.88 cubic feet per woofer. This will give a hump in the 30-40Hz region due to cabin gain... but I like the solidity this gives in a car system, compared to the typical mid-bass "boom". And you don't need three enclosures or three ports for three drivers. You can, of course, but it's not really any better than a single enclosure and single port. Just calculate for one and triple the enclosure volume and port area. Port length remains the same.

    You're also right about the "air movement". It's all about cone area (Sd) which determines swept volume (Sd x xmax = Vd). A 12" woofer has at least 50% more cone area than a 10" (I don't recall cone area formulas at the moment). I do recall that a 15" woofer has roughly twice the cone area of a 12".

    Finally,
    This is rubbish. There are many very high-end, very accurate vented loudspeakers out there. Tell Focal that their $80,000 per pair vented Grande Utopia speaker has poor "SQ". Yes, vented systems have higher group delay, but this can be easily managed. Bottom line is a well designed vented system can sound every bit as good as a well designed sealed system.
     
  8. Dave Milne

    Dave Milne Well-Known Member

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    Eryn,
    You're on the right track. Use the T/S params and calculations (or preferably a computer simulation program --there are a number of freeware programs out there) to determine what response shape you will get in various configurations. Some of the better programs have the option of simulating cabin gain to give you an accurate picture of in-car response. YOU decide what response shape works best for you.

    Yes, vented alignments are easier to overdrive and "bottom" --especially if driven with significant content below Fb (system resonance). But they will typically have more output at low frequencies, so you shouldn't have to push them as hard. Again, simulation software will give you a plot of maximum acoustic power output for a given alignment.

    I don't have the Alpine Type R woofer in my database, so I plugged the parameters you gave into BassBox 6.0. For maximally flat vented alignment (B4), it shows 0.88 cubic feet with Fb of 27.79 and F3 of 31.47. This is not a bad alignment and should fit nicely in a car. You're right in that the sealed alignments for this woofer are tiny and sub-optimal. The maximally flat (B2 Q=0.707) alignment is 0.25 cubic feet with F3 over 63 Hz.

    So I'd go vented with 0.88 cubic feet per woofer. This will give a hump in the 30-40Hz region due to cabin gain... but I like the solidity this gives in a car system, compared to the typical mid-bass "boom". And you don't need three enclosures or three ports for three drivers. You can, of course, but it's not really any better than a single enclosure and single port. Just calculate for one and triple the enclosure volume and port area. Port length remains the same.

    You're also right about the "air movement". It's all about cone area (Sd) which determines swept volume (Sd x xmax = Vd). A 12" woofer has at least 50% more cone area than a 10" (I don't recall cone area formulas at the moment). I do recall that a 15" woofer has roughly twice the cone area of a 12".

    Finally,
    This is rubbish. There are many very high-end, very accurate vented loudspeakers out there. Tell Focal that their $80,000 per pair vented Grande Utopia speaker has poor "SQ". Yes, vented systems have higher group delay, but this can be easily managed. Bottom line is a well designed vented system can sound every bit as good as a well designed sealed system.
     
  9. David.G

    David.G Well-Known Member

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    for 80K, thats pretty pathetic. vented only allows for more deeper output which IMO means its compensating for the quality of the sub. A vented box can make almost any sub sound good. But ED sub hits the best bass i've heard fomr any sub and hits low. Your Alpine will not hit around 30hz well i can tell you that. Most car audio does around 50hz. It'll lose output i think at or below 30hz. I'd put the subs in a sealed box. I don't remember you mentining what size it was but usually in a sealed box something with 1.4-1.5cf will do and if its too big add sand bags. With the Type R's you're using i'd say go 1.5 so that when the sub sits in you'll have roughly 1.35cf of volume.
     
  10. David.G

    David.G Well-Known Member

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    for 80K, thats pretty pathetic. vented only allows for more deeper output which IMO means its compensating for the quality of the sub. A vented box can make almost any sub sound good. But ED sub hits the best bass i've heard fomr any sub and hits low. Your Alpine will not hit around 30hz well i can tell you that. Most car audio does around 50hz. It'll lose output i think at or below 30hz. I'd put the subs in a sealed box. I don't remember you mentining what size it was but usually in a sealed box something with 1.4-1.5cf will do and if its too big add sand bags. With the Type R's you're using i'd say go 1.5 so that when the sub sits in you'll have roughly 1.35cf of volume.
     
  11. HowardLi

    HowardLi Member

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    How did you calculate the internal volume without the dimensions of the ports? The port dimensions depend on the tuning frequency AND the internal volume of the box.

    IMO, vented enclosures are better for car audio since you can't really hear the difference between a sealed box and a vented box in a car environment anyway. Besides, most of the stuff that gets played through a car sub isn't high fidelity anyway. With vented boxes, you save a lot of power for the same amount of output.

    David, cabin gain happens anywhere under 60Hz-80Hz, depending on the size of the cabin, not just between 30Hz and 40Hz.
     
  12. David.G

    David.G Well-Known Member

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    i've used both vented and sealed and can't stand vented. Delay isn't as noticable as the bass not being a precise. Sometimes it'll carry over on a drumroll where it should stop in between and some of the music i listen to is classical remixes and it blurs pretty bad on some of it. Sealed always seems to suit me better. I have heard many good setups that were vented but i never liked them. They take alot of space too. Its really up to your ears, but 3 subs already will give lots of output anyways.
     
  13. StephenHa

    StephenHa Well-Known Member

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    Some manufactures specify use of vented enclosures and void warranties with sealed (the old hi fonics did that) I don't use 3 separate chambers in a box since it tends to be less efficient. if you have the parameters it will tell what size box, and the ideal port dimensions with the box building programs. As far as frequency, it depends on what you want ,are you using a crossover?
     
  14. Mark gas

    Mark gas Well-Known Member

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    Main reson to use separate chambers is if one of your sub goes the box size for the remaining subs increases and the rest will not last too long after that. What does Alpine recommend for the type R for box size and tunning freq.
     
  15. Stephen Matthew

    Stephen Matthew Well-Known Member

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    looking waaay to far into things here guys...

    if one sub goes thermally... the total impedance the amp is seeing will increase.. thus the other 2 subs will see less power...

    there is no reason to divide a box.. especially in a ported box... there is an effect called coupling...when you have a single sub trying to pressurize a set amount of air there is a set amount of resistance.. add another sub nearby and it causes each sub to see less resistance to forward motion... which is minor compared to the simple fact that youve got waveforms combining,..... works similarly on the backwave... or inside the box...divide the box and you lose a bit of this..

    plus if you cant hear a difference when one sub dies, you shouldnt be allowed to live anymore....

    not to mention that 3 subs off the same amp.. all the same sub.. there is a fairly small chance, albeit possible, that only one of these subs will die thermally when all 3 see the same power in the same airspace...

    not to mention that 300 watts to a type-r is nothing...

    now im not certian which size you are using.. not even going to bother looking through alpines horrible website to try and hunt down the thiele small specs...

    from experience... the 10 .. go with 1 cube, 15" of port area per, tuned to about 35hz...

    the 12... go with 1.25 cubes with 20" of port area per tuned to 35hz...

    that is single sub boxes.. make a common chamber box.. put the port on the bottom.. with a single sub box i would highly suggest putting the port on the drivers side... noticeable and measurable difference, but in this case with 3 subs you would have issues with the subs being different distances from the port.. so make a single port on the bottom, and keep it under a 9:1 ration of width to height.... can cause noise if you dont...
     
  16. David.G

    David.G Well-Known Member

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    this is a little late but i'd try to tune below the 35hz range. With ported boxes don't the subs suffer on frequencies below the port frequency. I wouldn't suggest going lower than whats recommended by the company but i'd try something in the 20s so you don't have a problem with any time of music.
     

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