Watching Anime in Japanese vs. English (1 Viewer)

[DaveGTP]

I am one of those heathens that watches mostly dubs. Honestly, the only time that I don't like dubs is when the script is changed enough to alter the meaning of what is said. I think that this article @ Animenewsnetwork sums it up the best I have ever read: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/colu...rack.php?id=11

EDIT: That's hilarious, Tony-B beat me to the link.
I will take this quote from the article, as it sums things up accurately in my eyes:

That's where the argument breaks down. If you don't speak Japanese, you cannot determine with any degree of accuracy whether the acting is any good. And please, spare me the hooie about how you can just tell by how well the actors emote. Any actor can emote. Emoting is one part of acting. There's timing, enunciation, and all kinds of nuances that go into delivering a good line, all of which is lost on you if you don't speak the language. Scott Frazier tells a funny story about how he learned one of his favorite anime (Dirty Pair) was horribly acted, once he became fluent in Japanese.

I have had about 4 years of Spanish (I'm very rusty though, since I never use it). The sentence structure and organization of non-English languages is drastically different. A good actor is a good actor because of nuance, timing, etc, as stated above. This is lost on you unless you speak Japanese.

I will watch subtitles, but they are inevitably distracting you from the screen at least to a certain degree. The trade-off is up to you to decide.

If you saw my bookcase you would not doubt my willingness to read or my reading speed. This isn't "reading is hard without pictures" attitude, or "I can't read and watch the screen". So many fanatic sub/anime folks treat the dub folks this way. I can do so, but I feel the trade-off of subtitle reading distraction and inability to decipher accents, timing, or anything else beyond emotion from the Japanese language is not normally worth the trade-off of the better emoted acting. I would at least read the linked article to hear the other point of view. It is stated well.

I understand the fan prejudice against dubs from the dark age of dubs. I originally watched during the dark ages in the 90's myself. Back then they often seriously &*#(#ed with the script (we watched Legend of Arslan a while back, talk about screwing with the dialogue), translated very poorly (ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US, he he) or slapped any old person off the street to do dubs, etc. I fully support having both tracks on DVDs as a mandatory feature (thank god for no more independent sub/dub VHS releases). Good dubs were few and far between. Any intensely japanese culture anime (like Grave of the Fireflies) I will watch subtitled, because English feels wrong. Or as suggested above, I will watch English w/English subtitles to spot-check how many liberties are being taken with the dub vs the subtitles; if it is too many, I will watch the subs. Just my preference.

I don't say much about dubs or subs in anime discussion threads, because of the occasional outright HOSTILE pro-sub/anti-dub person. RELAX! I'm always amused by angry people. Most dubs are either good or pretty decent at worst, now. But the dark ages of dubs are pretty much gone, my friends.

 

[GregBe]

Dave,

I agree. That is what made me post initially. When re-watching BEBOP, in Japanese, there were some inflections of Spike voice that I don't think I would have caught simply by watching the subbed version initially. Of course I am an extreme novice at this, and I will continue to watch both until I can form an educated opinion.

 

[Eric F]

I will also admit that I will generally watch a dub first if it's halfway decent than going with the subs.

People slam some of the dubs, and I think to myself, "What's wrong with it?" I don't think the voice acting is half as bad as people make it out to be, most are better by far than the standard Saturday morning kiddy fare.

 

[Richard Kim]

In most cases, watching in the original Japanese with subs are my preferred way of watching anime. However there are a few exceptions where the English dub is superior and Cowboy Bebop is one of them. Shinichiro Watanabe, the director of Bebop, has stated that he was greatly influenced by American action and gangster films and it definitely shows in Bebop. Therefore, I believe that the English voice cast is much more appropriate in fulfilling the director's intent for Bebop than the Japanese cast. To me, Steve Blum IS Spike Speigel.

BTW, I really enjoyed the featurettes on the CB: The Movie DVD with interviews of both the English and Japanese cast and found it very informative on the process of voice acting.

 

[WillKTaylor]

Bride with White Hair, The

It's all about intent.

In one scene

Spoiler

, Brigette Lin is speaking with Leslie Cheung right after Cheung's clan was slaughtered. She essentially (in subs) answers his direct question of (paraphrasing) did you kill my clan? .. with (paraphrasing again) they are of no concern to me. In dubbing, she was more specific, or absolute if you will, by responding with, (paraphrase) no, I did not do it. [/spolier]

For me, the differences, albeit slight in the grand scale are bothersome enough for me to interpret the conversation and its subsequent effects two distinct ways. Did it have a big impact on the following scenes or plot line in general .. not really, but somewhat, yes, it did for me. This is perhaps a cultural interpretation that is lost within dubbing versus subs, but one that I will not exempt. This is true because it can detract from the general feel of the movie if nothing else. Besides, when I watch foreign films, I would prefer everything Asian not sound Australian, British or any other ridiculous attempt at dubbing.

Once, I was a dubber, but once introduced to the subtle and blatant (at times) differences, I chose subbing all the way. The trade off is, of course, losing some of the visual impact of the film. However, after a few years of reading movies while watching, I have learned how to read subtitling very quickly .. or at least enough to have picked enough up to understand the conversation to have minimized this supposed loss a great deal.

I would compare this argument to never ending P&S/WS debate. It's all a matter of choice and determining what's most important to you. At least with most films, there is that choice. All the best ....

 

[JonZ]

All this is IMHO of corse.....

I pretty much was into Anime from the early 80s through the mid90s.

I cant count the dubs Ive actually liked on one hand.

I always prefer the original language. I used to order movies from Books Nippon in the 80s to get them uncut and not dubbed.

Akira was mentioned and I think its one of the best arguments against dubs.When I was in art school in 89 we saw the dub print before it was released and the Akira fans (all 12 of us)were appalled.

The original voice actors put alot more effort and emotion into it than the english ones IMHO and theres no comparing the 2.

Imagine watching Seven Samurai,City Of Lost Children or Ran dubbed.Granted, were talking abot Anime here, but I think most dubbed films lose alot of the emotion and impact through the dubbing process.

 

[JoeMKal]

it all depends for me, sometimes I just don't have the patience for subs, but I would have to agree dubs can potentially kill the tone of the anime, I have noticed this especially with my two favorite animes (probably cause I watch them so much): Cowboy Bebop, and Trigun

 

[Chris Farmer]

While I'm not at all into anime (the only one I've ever seen is Spirited Away), animation is the one place where I back off my "original soundtrack language" stance. While I would never watch a dubbed over foreign film, with animation I back off that stance because by its very nature, animation is dubbed even into its original language. And decent voice acting in English beats out superb voice acting in a language I have no understanding of its subtleties. But for live action movies, when the person acting is also speaking, the nuances are carried over through body language in a way that animation can't do to nearly the same extent because of the disconnect between voice talent and animator. At least that's my opinion.

 

[Ian_H]

I myself prefer subs over dubs. I have heard way too many poor dubs that never sound quite right to me, so I will not even bother with the dub. Thank god for the advent of DVD and anime. I was forever tired of having to fork over an extra $10 to get the subtitled version of ovas and movies. I am glad those days are over.

On a funny side note I am such an original language snob that I picked up the manga for Battle Royale and looking at the back saw the words english translation that I almost put it back because it wasn't Japanese... then I realized that I need it in English to read! D'UH! I felt like such a spaz!


--Ian

 

[David Nolan]

i don't have too many anime titles that i watch regularly - the usuals like akira and ghost in the shell - but i do watch a lot of kurosawa, woo, wai, etc. films and after watching them a few times with the subtitles, i usually just watch them in their original language and with no subtitles. perhaps because most of the films are so visual in their storytelling that i don't feel the need for dialog anymore. i don't watch them that way at first, of course - i don't speak the language and there may be important story elements that i would miss - but i enjoy focusing in on the visuals, and cadence of the speech, more so than the words themselves. i may just be weird though.

david

 

[Dan Rudolph]

He makes essentially the same arguements I've been making. As far as intent goes, the director intended the audience to understand what they heard. If you don't speak Japanese you aren't pqart of the target audience and can't experience it quite as intended. The question is which is less of a compromise. I agree with the article author that unless the dub is bad, dubbing is closer to the original experience.

Too bad Jeff Kleist has been banned. A few weeks ago, you could have counted on him to come in a be extremely uncivil to anyone who claimed there was a such thing as a good dub.

Of course, I'm pretty sure he's fluent in Japanese and there's relatively little animation produced in languages other than Japanese and English, so he wasn't in a good position to judge.

 

[Matthew_V]

.

 

[Dan Rudolph]

He used to post several time daily. That he hasn't been here in two weeks is pretty strong evidence he's gone, I'd say. Rumor has it he posted somethign inappropriate in the tv forums.

 

[Tony-B]

Heck, half of the posts in this thread would be by Jeff.

You can take a look here and here for old arguments and some of his points...

 

[ShaunS]

I can't help but think alot of this boils down to plain old experience. The arguement that reading subtitles causes you to miss some of the action seems like a stretch to me (unless you are a really slow reader). It is second nature for my eyes to dart down and up whenever a sub appears on screen. People complain of having to "read" a film, but it is not like text is continuelly scrolling up the screen. The few times there are multiple lines of sub it rarely occurs during explosive action scenes.

In DaveGTP's article quote earlier it says

This i find to be absolutely inaccurate. The main reason I watch subs only is because every dub I've ever heard rings hollow in my ears. Japanese voice actors are huge stars based soley on their voice talent alone, both the sounds of their voices and their ability to be emotive. As opposed to North American animation in which voice actors are picked in a large part due to their already being famous. Just watch recent Disney films that employed such voices as those of Brad Pitt or Michael J. Fox. And now think of someone like Hank Azaria, a voice actor I think is comproable to a Japanese conterpart. Sure he is a semi well known actor, I guess, but not someone who would draw in the crowds to an animated film as the likes of a Pitt.

ShaunS

 

[Richard Kim]

I can't help but think alot of this boils down to plain old experience. The arguement that reading subtitles causes you to miss some of the action seems like a stretch to me (unless you are a really slow reader). It is second nature for my eyes to dart down and up whenever a sub appears on screen.

The problem is that in order for the subs to be succinct and read quickly, some of the actual dialogue has to be omitted, which compromises the experience compared to a native speaker, or someone watching a competent dub.

In the case of Cowboy Bebop, I found the subs to be rather dull and oddly worded, compared to the descriptive dialogue in the English dub.

I do agree that the quality of alot of English dubs in anime leaves much to be desired. However, one should not disqualify all English dubs.

 

[Dan Rudolph]

Japanese voice actors are huge stars based soley on their voice talent alone, both the sounds of their voices and their ability to be emotive. As opposed to North American animation in which voice actors are picked in a large part due to their already being famous. Just watch recent Disney films that employed such voices as those of Brad Pitt or Michael J. Fox.

How is this relevant to dubs? The only dubs I know of where they use name actors are the Disney ones, of which only four have been released. Besides, celebrity voice actors are typically chosen for their voices. I've never seen an instance of bad voice-acting just to get a celebrity (discounting people playing themselves). Are you seriously arguing the critic would have been better without Jon Lovitz, for instance?

 

[Rob Lutter]

I disagree with there being no "stars" of American dubbing... Every dub and their mother is now using Wendee Lee (more as an ADR director now though... and a crappy one at that who is leading the way in the Osaka accent -> US Southern accent syndrom) and David Lucas.

David Lucas as GTO makes Rob cry :frowning:

If you don't speak Japanese you aren't pqart of the target audience and can't experience it quite as intended.

I TOTALLY disagree with the fact that I cannot judge how good a Japanese VA is because I am not totally fluent. I can read the words in the subs and attach them to the words being said on screen quite easily actually. Some of the words on the screen I don't even need the subtitles... they are just there to guide me. Emotions are universal.

 

[TheLongshot]

I remember watching one of the dubbed episodes on Cartoon Network, and they mentioned the movie, "Die Another Day". However, Lupin was made back in the 70s and Die Another Day was made in 2002. What is wrong with this picture?

The worst example was an episode I saw on Cartoon Network. The plot was about Lupin being entered in an F1 race. All the big names of F1 in the 70s (Jackie Stewart, etc) were mentioned, yet, they make a Simpsons reference... :rolleyes

I also think there are some pretty good dubs out there right now. In fact, I prefer watching El-Hazard dubbed, because I think the performances are superior.

Dubs that I think are pretty good:

Cowboy Bebop (Except for Ed)
Trigun (I'm undecided on the guy playing Vash)
Neon Genesis Evangelion
Jubei-Chan (Except for the cultural differences that make the dub problematic.)

Dubs that are not very good:

Fushigi Yugi (The Pain! The Pain!)
Crest Of The Stars

Jason

 

[Dan Rudolph]

I TOTALLY disagree with the fact that I cannot judge how good a Japanese VA is because I am not totally fluent. I can read the words in the subs and attach them to the words being said on screen quite easily actually. Some of the words on the screen I don't even need the subtitles... they are just there to guide me. Emotions are universal.

That would work if you know some Japanese, but for many people, that isn't the case. It's not like Japanese has a one-to-one correspondance with English. Good acting isn't just about a broad emotion for a whole line. Frankly, if it were, anyone could do it. It's all about subtleties. If you don't even know which word is which, there's no way you'd pick up on how things are emphasized or where the telling pauses go.

Bottom line is if you watch things in a language you don't understand, you won't be getting the full experience, even with subtitles. I'm of course excepting things that weren't meant to be understood by their audiences such as the passion and various things with people speaking foreign languages. Granted, you likely aren't getting the full experience with a dub either, but I believe it's closer.

Most anime is animated, then dubbed by the voice actors. In other words, the original intent comes from the animators and the actors are taking their direction from that. Thsi is the exact same thing the dubbers are doing, except they're working from a translated script. In other words, there is not any more inherent compromise than there is in any translation.

This is quite different from live action and US animation, where the actors are involved much earlier in the process and therefore the original acting is much more important in capturing the original piece.