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USHE Announcement: Alfred Hitchcock: The Masterpiece Collection (Blu-ray) (1 Viewer)

Yorkshire

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Brianruns10 said:
This cannot be a coincidence, and I feel the original sound designers place this with a mind to its impact, underlining Scotty's words. It has power and importance, and in the restoration mix, it was omitted entirely.
Before we go any further, I think these releases should always have their original soundtrack.
However, I'm at a loss to see how the little in-joke (which frankly might even have been a coincidence) of a car horn honking twice just because someone is taking a second step "...has power and importance...".
Steve W
 

Joe Caps

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The new stereo mix is, simply, an abomination.
I have the disc that has the true mono track, along with the redone stereo track.
Some simple things. First, the dialogue AND the music sound much better on the mono track.
Throughout the film, you can quickly swith back and forth from the mono to the stereo. What an embarrasing experience !!!
You can quickly hear the many changes in foley, etc. - and never for the good.
 

Brianruns10

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Yorkshire said:
However, I'm at a loss to see how the little in-joke (which frankly might even have been a coincidence) of a car horn honking twice just because someone is taking a second step "...has power and importance...".
Steve W
With all due respect, it is precisely that kind of thinking which led to the kinds of dubious decisions made on the new restoration soundtrack. Things were deleted precisely because they were thought to not be of value, which is the wrong approach. Everything should've been reproduced.
Two car horn honks may seem unimportant, but that is not the case. I can think of a number of arguments, such as the car horns help to underline Scotty's actions and his words, and that they serve as a kind of warning to the protagonist, which he does not heed.
But at the end of the day, they are in there in the original, and they should've been in there in the restored version.
 

Yorkshire

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Brianruns10 said:
With all due respect, it is precisely that kind of thinking which led to the kinds of dubious decisions made on the new restoration soundtrack. Things were deleted precisely because they were thought to not be of value, which is the wrong approach. Everything should've been reproduced.
Two car horn honks may seem unimportant, but that is not the case. I can think of a number of arguments, such as the car horns help to underline Scotty's actions and his words, and that they serve as a kind of warning to the protagonist, which he does not heed.
But at the end of the day, they are in there in the original, and they should've been in there in the restored version.
As I've already said, I think the original soundtrack should be there, and any re-done soundtrack should follow it as faithfully as possible.
My piont was that the missing two car honks do not have 'power and importance' in the scene.
With all due respect, this is the sort of hyyperbole we could do without on the internet. If it's wrong to miss the honks off, say it's wrong to miss the honks off, as it's best to stick to the original, no matter how small the change. Instead, people think the argument is best made if you pretend the film is "...an embarrasing experience...". by changing the slightest, least significant thing.
Always be prepared to make your argument and stand your ground based on the truth, without having to rely on blowing things out of proportion.
Steve W
 

rich_d

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Yorkshire said:
As I've already said, I think the original soundtrack should be there, and any re-done soundtrack should follow it as faithfully as possible.
My piont was that the missing two car honks do not have 'power and importance' in the scene.
With all due respect, this is the sort of hyyperbole we could do without on the internet. If it's wrong to miss the honks off, say it's wrong to miss the honks off, as it's best to stick to the original, no matter how small the change. Instead, people think the argument is best made if you pretend the film is "...an embarrasing experience...". by changing the slightest, least significant thing.
Always be prepared to make your argument and stand your ground based on the truth, without having to rely on blowing things out of proportion.
Steve W
I'm with you on most of this as we are all in agreement that the original audio should be included and that any additional audio options should be faithful to the original intent.
As far as the honks go, obviously those that did the new audio option can't be happy about what occurred. Also, the facts are that the two honks sound AFTER Scottie has risen to the level of the second step (his second foot not yet on the step). However, the far-away honks do support the steps at height idea, just no need to dwell on their significance beyond that, at least in my view. That said, I doubt that there were too many people downplaying the importance of rain that was stripped from windows in an earlier version of Citizen Kane. Was that the "power and importance" of the scene? I doubt it. But it was an unfortunate omission just like this is.
 

Cineman

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Brianruns10 said:
The problem for many, including myself, is that the sounds are anachronistic to the film, most notably with the infamous new gunshots in the opening scene. They are modern foley effects and they do not sound as a SFX in a 50s film would.
And in a few cases, the new mix makes some crucial omissions. One that immediately comes to mind is the moment when Scotty is climbing the step stool to prove a point about gradually getting used to heights. When he says (paraphrased) "Okay, now number 2" you can clearly hear a car horn honk twice outside.
This cannot be a coincidence, and I feel the original sound designers place this with a mind to its impact, underlining Scotty's words. It has power and importance, and in the restoration mix, it was omitted entirely.
I know it's not possible to create an ideal restoration mix. So instead, the best option is to give us both choices so we can experience the beauty of Bernard Herrmann's score in the 5.1 mix, as well as Hitch's original vision in the mono mix.
I agree. I think the restored/re-recorded and original should always be included. As I said earlier, if I had my way the original would always be the default setting with an option to choose the revised one. But I fear the upcoming Blu-ray version in this set does not even include the original as an option. I hope I'm wrong.
Honestly, I hadn't followed the controversy about the soundtrack re-do and thought I was almost alone in my feeling about the difference. In fact, I wasn't even certain what it was about the restoration (which, as I said I admire and appreciate on so many other levels) that was leaving me cold, a feeling I cannot otherwise imagine associating with a viewing of Vertigo.
What I did know was that, despite the beautiful image restoration and despite enthusiastic theatrical screenings of this, my favorite movie, there was something less emotional about the experience. I couldn't put my finger on it. I chalked it up to having seen it so many times and no longer being pulled into it or as emotionally involved as I had been before. But why hadn't I felt that by the 7th or 8th time I watched it pre-restoration? Worse, I began to side slightly with people I encountered who had only seen the restored version and complained that it was fine movie, but "boring", not nearly as compelling as so many other Hitchcock films. For the first time, I understood what they meant. But why had I never felt this way myself from all those pre-restoration viewings?
Motivated solely by the missing warning horn honks you mentioned above and the missing type-writer sounds through the wall during the scene in Elster's office where Elster tells Scotty his tale of Carlotta and Madeleine (both of which sounds I distinctly remembered from before and knew were missing in the theatrical screenings of the restoration), I decided to do an A>B comparison through several scenes with the Masterpiece Collection standard DVD and the difference was rather shocking. Not only was the overall effect of the foley sounds far less lively, alive and multi-layered in the re-recorded version (accounting for much of the impression that the movie is "boring" for those who have only seen that version, imo), but many of those sly Hitchcock sound references, like the warning horn honks and the type-writer sound from the outer office while Elster is spinning his tale, were gone. In the newly-recorded version, the almost comically loud sound of hard bone breaking rooftop tile when Madeleine "commits suicide" actually contradicts the admission by Judy in the final scene that Elster wasn't taking any chances, that he'd "broken her neck", whereas the dull, lifeless thud sound of the original confirms it. We must know with absolute certainty that Judy is telling the truth and nothing but the truth in that final scene. Yet the newly-recorded "improvement" of that foley sound effect when Madeliene's body hits the mission rooftop adds nothing so much as doubt about that key admission. And that's only a couple of instances where the foley "improvement" detracts more than enhances.
 

rich_d

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Cineman said:
Not only was the overall effect of the foley sounds far less lively, alive and multi-layered in the re-recorded version (accounting for much of the impression that the movie is "boring" for those who have only seen that version, imo), but many of those sly Hitchcock sound references, like the warning horn honks and the type-writer sound from the outer office while Elster is spinning his tale, were gone. In the newly-recorded version, the almost comically loud sound of hard bone breaking rooftop tile when Madeleine "commits suicide" actually contradicts the admission by Judy in the final scene that Elster wasn't taking any chances, that he'd "broken her neck", whereas the dull, lifeless thud sound of the original confirms it. We must know with absolute certainty that Judy is telling the truth and nothing but the truth in that final scene. Yet the newly-recorded "improvement" of that foley sound effect when Madeliene's body hits the mission rooftop adds nothing so much as doubt about that key admission. And that's only a couple of instances where the foley "improvement" detracts more than enhances.
So ... let me get this straight ... a corpse drops with a "lifeless thud" but a live body doesn't? C'mon. The new foley effect might not have been the best but bones/tiles sure could break whether she was alive or dead. I'd also suggest that we don't have "absolute certainty" as to what Judy is saying to Scottie is the truth. We have her day dream memory/recollection as to what occurred so we know what Judy thinks happened (or at least allows herself to remember). Judy could have been lying. If Madeleine was already dead, she had no involvement in the actual murder. I doubt Elster would allow that to happen. What if she turned him in? Meanwhile, her potential lie makes her innocent of the actual murder. That's convenient. From the audiences perspective, the main idea is us watching Scottie play catch-up.
 

Cineman

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rich_d said:
So ... let me get this straight ... a corpse drops with a "lifeless thud" but a live body doesn't? C'mon. The new foley effect might not have been the best but bones/tiles sure could break whether she was alive or dead. I'd also suggest that we don't have "absolute certainty" as to what Judy is saying to Scottie is the truth. We have her day dream memory/recollection as to what occurred so we know what Judy thinks happened (or at least allows herself to remember). Judy could have been lying. If Madeleine was already dead, she had no involvement in the actual murder. I doubt Elster would allow that to happen. What if she turned him in? Meanwhile, her potential lie makes her innocent of the actual murder. That's convenient. From the audiences perspective, the main idea is us watching Scottie play catch-up.
The loud 'clunk' sound of bone breaking rooftop tile supports a possibility that it was the fall that killed Madeleine, that Elster had not already murdered her with his bare hands, as Judy said he did in the final scene. I have no doubt that the same director who wanted to hear the sound of a butcher knife plunging into various fruits and vegetables in order to determine which sound was the exact right sound for the shower scene in Psycho also considered the different conclusion an audience might make in retrospect or on subsequent viewings of Vertigo between the sound of hard bone breaking rooftop tile, which could also break a neck, and the less distinctive sound of a dull thud where it was utterly plausible, again in retrospect, that the victim was already dead before we and Scottie see her body plunge past the mission window. The sound in the original is like a sack of potatoes hitting the rooftop. The sound in the re-recording is very much in keeping with the sound of a death blow and therefore introduces distracting doubt about what Judy affirms later.
Even if that wasn't Hitchcock's consideration in choosing the one he approved over the one we now have, I cannot imagine that Hitchcock went with the one he choose for no particular reason at all, simply because it was handy, that it didn't matter to him what the audience might think of it, or that he might have gone with a loud, conclusive 'clunk' of hard bone breaking tile just for ear candy kicks if someone had only suggested it.
And there is this even more important thematic advantage to our being certain Judy is telling the truth about Elster having killed Madeleine with his bare hands before her body plunges to the rooftop. As Scottie has become more like Elster in his "killing" of the woman in his life, Elster's due to his obsession with money, Scottie's due to his obsession with a lost love, Judy is already aware that "she", her real persona, has been killed by Scottie before she plunges to the rooftop below as well. As Madeleine was dead at the hands of Elster before she hit that rooftop, so too, Judy was "dead" at the hands of Scottie before she hit that rooftop. Whatever sound effect helps to promote rather than muddy the water on that thematic outcome is the better choice. Which, imo, is why Hitchcock made the choice he made in the original vs the choice that was made by others decades later.
Sorry about a late edit and addition here: But if we are allowed the possibility that Judy was lying at the end, that she was simply a lying crook, an unrepentant criminal willing to go along with a scheme to kill a woman and likely lying to Scottie right to the end to save her own skin, then we've lost the poignancy and significance of her death. Vertigo then become much more of a clever but routine noir crime story and not the masterpiece that it is, imo. The opening shot is of a woman's face. The movie that follows is every bit as much Judy's story as it is Scottie's story, although the genius of it is we don't realize that for most of the movie. It is something that becomes more and more meaningful with subsequent viewings. If it then turns out Judy's story is as simplistic as a criminal weaseling out of every corner she finds herself in without our ever seeing her as vulnerable, even a victim herself by the end, then what is there for Scottie to regret as he stands on the ledge surveying what he has at least partially wrought?
 

rich_d

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Cineman said:
Sorry about a late edit and addition here: But if we are allowed the possibility that Judy was lying at the end, that she was simply a lying crook, an unrepentant criminal willing to go along with a scheme to kill a woman and likely lying to Scottie right to the end to save her own skin, then we've lost the poignancy and significance of her death. Vertigo then become much more of a clever but routine noir crime story and not the masterpiece that it is, imo. The opening shot is of a woman's face. The movie that follows is every bit as much Judy's story as it is Scottie's story, although the genius of it is we don't realize that for most of the movie. It is something that becomes more and more meaningful with subsequent viewings. If it then turns out Judy's story is as simplistic as a criminal weaseling out of every corner she finds herself in without our ever seeing her as vulnerable, even a victim herself by the end, then what is there for Scottie to regret as he stands on the ledge surveying what he has at least partially wrought?
To me, the beauty of VERTIGO is that it offers more questions than it does answers. Is it to be taken as a straight story or are we merely in a someone's dream/nightmare or full-length Twilight Zone type-film? To me, CHINATOWN, at its heart, borrows greatly from VERTIGO. It is the story of a former police detective who makes the same mistake twice. One take place in Chinatown while the other takes place at the Mission at San Juan Bautista.
I love Noir films. The films often involve a certain fate that is inescapable, a femme fatale and a man who can't get out of his own way. Judy is the femme fatale who for money sets up Scottie for murder, let's him take the fall for murder (which doesn't get him in prison but into a prison of his own mind) while being an accomplice to murder. She is a criminal. That doesn't mean that we, the audience can't (or won't) root for her. But if you're buying into the 'straight story' a great end does NOT require that we believe that Judy has stopped lying. It is quite possible that it was Madeleine that let out that scream as she fell to her death and certainly more plausible than what Judy suggests. Still another option is that the scream was staged. In two of those options, it still makes Judy a liar to the end. What it does do is make for a richer story and that is the beauty of VERTIGO.
 

Robert Harris

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It seems that the legend of the Vertigo tracks comes up every few years or so, rather like cicadas.

A few facts.

The original tracks ( mixing stems, as well as the final mono dub) were junked at the behest of Mr. H's people in the late '60s, early '70s.

All that made its way to Universal c. 1983 were some used prints, as well as an optical track neg, missing many of its perforations. It was junked.

A couple of M & Es were located in foreign territories, each with its own problems -- wow & flutter, locally created Foley, etc.

Our intent was to re-create, as closely as possible, the feeling of the 1958 track, but using the stereo mx recordings, which had survived at Paramount.

We were able to find Mr. H's dubbing notes, which are extremely precise, and should have served as a template, along with a basic copy of the original mono from a print.

New Foley had to be created, and the sound dept did quite a good job of it.

The problem came with the final mix, for which the studio made a decision to not follow the original, not to reference the mono, and create a new fully filled track, inclusive of adding bird sounds to the "dead" forest.

Had we been able to have our way, which we partially did, with a bit of outside intervention, things would have been fine, but in the end, the studio won.

I believe that a new mix, still using our stereo stems, but following our original intent, will be found on the new Blu-ray.

RAH
 

mikeyhitchfan

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Robert Harris said:
It seems that the legend of the Vertigo tracks comes up every few years or so, rather like cicadas.
A few facts.
The original tracks ( mixing stems, as well as the final mono dub) were junked at the behest of Mr. H's people in the late '60s, early '70s.
All that made its way to Universal c. 1983 were some used prints, as well as an optical track neg, missing many of its perforations.  It was junked.
A couple of M & Es were located in foreign territories, each with its own problems -- wow & flutter, locally created Foley, etc.
Our intent was to re-create, as closely as possible, the feeling of the 1958 track, but using the stereo mx recordings, which had survived at Paramount.
We were able to find Mr. H's dubbing notes, which are extremely precise, and should have served as a template, along with a basic copy of the original mono from a print.
New Foley had to be created, and the sound dept did quite a good job of it.
The problem came with the final mix, for which the studio made a decision to not follow the original, not to reference the mono, and create a new fully filled track, inclusive of adding bird sounds to the "dead" forest.
Had we been able to have our way, which we partially did, with a bit of outside intervention, things would have been fine, but in the end, the studio won.
I believe that a new mix, still using our stereo stems, but following our original intent, will be found on the new Blu-ray.
RAH
I hope that there will be a new stereo mix closer to your (and H's) original intentions. I still will compare the original mono mix to see which I like better. I thought the new mix for Psycho was done well, so there's hope.
 

Doctorossi

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Robert Harris said:
I believe that a new mix, still using our stereo stems, but following our original intent, will be found on the new Blu-ray.
Wow, do I hope that you're right!
 

rich_d

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Robert Harris said:
It seems that the legend of the Vertigo tracks comes up every few years or so, rather like cicadas.
A few facts.
The original tracks ( mixing stems, as well as the final mono dub) were junked at the behest of Mr. H's people in the late '60s, early '70s.
All that made its way to Universal c. 1983 were some used prints, as well as an optical track neg, missing many of its perforations.  It was junked.
A couple of M & Es were located in foreign territories, each with its own problems -- wow & flutter, locally created Foley, etc.
Our intent was to re-create, as closely as possible, the feeling of the 1958 track, but using the stereo mx recordings, which had survived at Paramount.
We were able to find Mr. H's dubbing notes, which are extremely precise, and should have served as a template, along with a basic copy of the original mono from a print.
New Foley had to be created, and the sound dept did quite a good job of it.
The problem came with the final mix, for which the studio made a decision to not follow the original, not to reference the mono, and create a new fully filled track, inclusive of adding bird sounds to the "dead" forest.
Had we been able to have our way, which we partially did, with a bit of outside intervention, things would have been fine, but in the end, the studio won.
I believe that a new mix, still using our stereo stems, but following our original intent, will be found on the new Blu-ray.
RAH
Robert,
To clarify ... these surviving stereo mix recordings ... what were these exactly?
 

Robert Harris

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Originally Posted by rich_d /t/321703/ushe-announcement-alfred-hitchcock-the-masterpiece-collection-blu-ray/90#post_3947048
Robert,
To clarify ... these surviving stereo mix recordings ... what were these exactly?

They were originally the actual floor recordings of the music. Very vinegar, and probably no longer survive, but had mag backup. While we located all of the original music, only certain cues were stereo.

The music was recorded originally in London, due to a domestic strike. After the UK joined, the mono was completed, to the best of memory, in Vienna.

RAH
 

rich_d

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Robert Harris said:
They were originally the actual floor recordings of the music.  Very vinegar, and probably no longer survive, but had mag backup.  While we located all of the original music, only certain cues were stereo.
The music was recorded originally in London, due to a domestic strike.  After the UK joined, the mono was completed, to the best of memory, in Vienna.
RAH
Thanks. Sadly, I fall into the category of those with a poor memory, as that information 'rings a bell.'
Every informed decision becomes one of effort/time/money and the best technology available. Apparently software tools that can effectively isolate audio elements are getting better and better. Perhaps in the future, the original sound effects can be stripped from available prints and restored so that the original foley work (or as close to original as possible) is restored. If Dan Auiler's book on Vertigo is correct (btw, no-brainer personal library addition for anyone truly interested in the film), on Katz/Harris' dime, the original music was saved by copying the score from that tapes as they were disintegrating. Mixing metaphors a bit, clearly your focus was on the big picture and as such that certainly included Bernard Herrmann's amazing score.
 

Cineman

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Robert Harris said:
...Had we been able to have our way, which we partially did, with a bit of outside intervention, things would have been fine, but in the end, the studio won.
I believe that a new mix, still using our stereo stems, but following our original intent, will be found on the new Blu-ray.
RAH
Thank you for more background on this, Mr. Harris. Just to clarify (for me, at least), by your last statement above are you saying the soundtrack you believe will be on the upcoming Blu-ray is something we never heard in earlier theatrical/DVD releases of the restored version? That it will essentially be the world premiere of your originally-intended restored soundtrack?
If so, that is exciting news as I'm sure with your original intent finally in place, and following as you did Hitchcock's notes, the end result should be much better than what has come before in the restored versions.
 

Charles Smith

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I remember what a thrill it was to find the stereo (or partially stereo?) soundtrack on a Mercury Golden Imports LP way back in the day. (I'd never had the original LP, which I think was mono only?) Even more thrilling when I heard the restoration had the stereo score. A real blessing, that was.
 

Cees Alons

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Originally Posted by MattH. /t/321703/ushe-announcement-alfred-hitchcock-the-masterpiece-collection-blu-ray/90#post_3947099
Always happy to get the facts straight from the horse's (er...Mr. Harris') mouth. Thank you!

The man called horse was the other Harris.






Cees
 

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