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Upscaling/HDef DVD Player merged thread (1 Viewer)

DaveGTP

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I put it in 480p mode a couple of times to verify that it was the same (I thought, perhaps the 1080i mode is bypassing the Faroudja). Otherwise, I was running it at 1080i.

My X1 downconverts to 480p anyway.

It was at about 3:08 into the movie. When the fake kid is dropping over (and the alarm is going off). The headboard behind him is not smooth.

I'll see if I can take a photo of it when Stacey is done watching Harry Potter.

As far as Felicity, I noticed that PowerDVD on my PC has the same combing effect (I know the PC DVD software doesn't handle poor flags well), although less noticeable on such a small screen. But I KNOW I saw the weird issue with Monster's Inc. I paused it just to be sure.

And on the anime, seriously, the combing was very very noticeable. Some anime has it no matter what (it's an known chroma/DVD issue), but the titles I looked at were formerly clean of it!
 

Don_Berg

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Good Job Dave! This shows that waiting for the "Secrets" experts testing is a good idea. Sounds like the Zenith gets combing on bad flags that many DVDs have, thats why the "Secrets" tests are important. The Zenith must not always enable the Faroujda chip properly.
I particularly chose a Faroudja-based player for DCDi's improvement with video-based titles which my top-rated XP30 does beautifully! I would never trade my XP30 for a model like the Zenith that does just a poor job with video-based titles and also can't format 4:3 titles correctly. Thanks for your extensive testing and review Dave, other users just aren't adequately testing this model like the "Secrets" crew does.

Dave, I know you are leery of getting an XP30 on EBAY. But I did so and had no problems, just do it with a trusted seller. I'm certain you would be truly satisfied with the top-rated XP30, as I am.
 

DaveGTP

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I don't understand, though, because the Zenith is Faroudja based. It should be handling the deinterlacing the same as the other Faroudja units. Shouldn't it?

That's why I'm questioning it.
 

Don_Berg

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Zenith could be using it in a different flag-reading mode. It is a different Faroudja chip than the one in the older Faroudja-based players. This is why I prefer to wait for the "secrets" expert's testing - I trust their extensive testing for exactly this reason. Any player can work well with most film-based DVD movies, its the video-based and poorly flagged titles that the good models stand out.
 

DaveGTP

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Aha! I ironed out some of it. I did some reading and found that it's better to send 16:9 signal to the pj and set the pj to 16:9 (despite it being a 4:3) as then the pj is getting more lines of resolution to work with from the DVD player. I knew this but had forgotten (I knew there was a reason I ran it 16:9 for so long). This is the way I had it for ages, before changing it for convenience a while back to 4:3.

I tried changing them both over to 16:9 and Presto!
the combing/chroma effect I was getting all but vanished in 16:9 mode. Still seeable, but only barely, and possibly only because I knew it was there.
I would hazard a guess that perhaps the MPEG encoder has the Chroma bug, but the DCDi is pretty much masking by resampling the chroma channel (I read @ hometheaterhifi secrets that this is a tolerable solution to the bug). Verrrrry interesting.


Here's some digital photos of what I was seeing (extreme closeup).

Monsters, Inc @ 4:3 :

http://www.svsu.edu/~dpbatzer/monster_1.jpg

Monsters, Inc @ 16:9, projector @ 16:9 (much better!!):

http://www.svsu.edu/~dpbatzer/monster2.jpg


Azumanga Daioh @ 4:3

http://www.svsu.edu/~dpbatzer/az_daioh1.jpg

With Felicity it looks like there is a mpeg artifact right near the biggest spazzing by the player - so the artifact might have just been confusing the deinterlacer.


Still, it does seem like I am seeing more combing on the 4:3 stuff that I should be. Deinterlacing glitches in anime jump right off the screen at you.

I would recommend the player for anamorphic 16:9 but hesitate at this point to recommend it for 4:3, non-anamorphic discs, or video based material. I wish my Panny CP72 was working enough to A/B the material.

I would post this on avsforum too, but it seems like avsforum is down. I will post it tomorrow morning when I wake up, perhaps.
 

Don_Berg

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Dave, did your Panasonic CP72 show any of these artifacts? Since the CP72 performs the same as the RP82,XP30 type players in that regard, your tests now prove that the XP30 is superior for many title types that I deem important. This is why the "secrets" tests are so important to compare the de-interlacing quality of different models.
 

Steve Schaffer

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One of the guys from "Secrets" posted over at AVS that they'd like to test the DVB-318 but can't get LG or Zenith to send them one. Hopefully someone who already owns one will volunteer to send them one so they can perform thier tests on it. The "secrets" guy sounded amenable to this as long as the player was not modded. They are planning to do the Momitsu and a couple of the other upconverting players soon.

My CP-72 is still working fine, so I can do some A/B this weekend if my Zenith arrives on time, but I'm going to be using component to a crt rptv that can do native 480p as well as native 1080i so my results may not apply to those with fixed pixel displays.
 

Don_Berg

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Great Steve! Please test video-based and 4:3 titles and look for combing artifacts during motion for the CP72 vs the Zenith DVB318, both with 480p and 1080i output modes. I hope Secrets can run their tests on a Zenith soon.
 

DaveGTP

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I'd love to hear about an A/B test with a CP72, Steve! I'm going to be gone on vacation/honeymoon, but I will read when I come back. My work buddy got my 72 up and running again by tearing it apart, but it is temporary - he says you can hear the spindle motor all the time. I almost asked for it back for a few days to a/b test - but I'm leaving on the trip - no time.

Like you said though, the problem with user reviews is that everyone has different displays!




A guy over on AVSforum A/B'd with his RP62 and was happy with it - it was good to see another Panny/Faroudja owner comment. A lot of the esctatic feedback is really coming from the people upgrading from lesser players. I saw one guy replaced his cheapy Cyberhome and was astounded by the difference. Those of us going from Faroudja units are a little more skeptical/have higher expectations.



I have a feeling that it if I am getting more combing artifacts, it has more to do with the upscaling/downscaling effects I'm getting with 480p up to 1080i down to 480p pj.

I only freaked out on the player's performance when the anamorphic titles looked like crap in 4:3 mode. It was really strange to see the problem vanish in 16:9 mode. I still don't understand why. I know the pj gets more lines of rez with 16:9, but still...



I hope they release some firmware to fix the 480p color bleeding, because I would almost prefer to run the player in that. It would also make for a good a/b comparison on whether it is really better to feed a 480p projector upscaled DVD or keep the signal nearer to native.


I do agree with Don on one thing : the lack of pillarboxed 4:3 is the biggest sticking point. Anyone thinking about getting it should be forewarned. I know the "blame" really lies on their display, but it's important for people to know about.
If I had a display that locked in 16:9 @ 1080i, I wouldn't have this player. Too much 4:3 - we have eclectic tastes. Anime would be the biggest concern, followed by a little bit of TVonDVD, documentaries, classics, etc.

I would also hesitate to recommend for those with 4:3 displays with no 16:9 squeeze, after seeing how my Zenith looked with those titles @ 4:3. I'm waiting to hear from someone with a 4:3 HD unit with no squeeze can comment.
 

Steve Schaffer

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Dave,
I just got through reading the review you mentionned over at AVS:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/print...postid=3855261

He was using a projector, as are you, and I'm pretty ignorant on the subject of FP.

I think I read in one of your past posts that your proj. has a native scanrate of 480p?

I know that most of the raves about the Zenith have been about it's 1080i output, not 480p, and that's what I plan to use most because my crt rptv will do native 1080i. I really doubt if your experience and mine will match up much or even could be expected to given the huge variance in display devices between us,

The lack of pillarboxing is a problem with the Zenith in 1080i, which is why I plan to keep my JVC. The Z reportedly can be made to do a vertical-only stretch for nonanamorphic widescreen, so at least that's covered.

I sifted thru that 2000+ post thread on the Z over at AVS pretty carefully myself and agree that there are a lot of people who are mightily impressed whose previous players were non-Faroudja based, but there are a few also who've compared with the CP-72, RP-82, and XP-30 who seem to like the Zenith also.

Don,

I'll definitely compare combing on 480p mode but since my only reason for getting the Zenith is the upconversion to 1080i, I'm going to be more concerned about performance at that scanrate.

If you can suggest any particular dvds to try, it would be helpful. I don't have much in the way of video-tape based tv series compilations, but I do have Saving Private Ryan, Monsters Inc, and over 400 more. If you can come up with any fairly popular movie titles and specific scenes it would be very helpful. I could try some special features sections that in the past have made my JVC comb, I suppose. FedEx tracking says the Zenith should arrive tomorrow but I won't be home. I specified it was ok to leave it on the doorstep but there's every chance I'll end up having to go to their depot to pick it up Tuesday, Monday being a holiday.
 

DaveGTP

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I think the best things to test are the DVDs that the Secrets folks test with - improperly flagged discs.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ut-1-2003.html


Has the best guide/details about the misflagged discs.

I was happy with the performance of the pj once I put them both in 16:9. The biggest issues were anamorphic titles at 4:3.


I really didn't mean to cause a lot of alarm. Most of my initial negative reaction was the performance of the aforementioned widescreen titles running in 4:3 mode. In 16:9 they are clean and beautiful. *shrug* Still don't know why.


As a side note:
Does anyone know what resolution 4:3 "1080i" output is? I know 16:9 is 1920x1080, but what is 4:3? This would help me to understand how much scaling is going on when I'm running 4:3 titles.




I really think what few combing/deinterlacing errors I am seeing still there is due to having too much scaling going on in my setup. I was leery of running 1080i to downscale to 480p (projector is actually scaling to native 16:9 rez of 450p for 16:9, and 800x600 for 4:3, to be nitpicky) - it makes sense for a few more artifacts/glitches here and there. The X1 crops a few lines from 480p to 450 in order to keep 1:1 pixel mapping. But in 1080i, it instead scales (no longer 1:1 mapping). The 1:1 pixel mapping is probably what I am missing.


I'm still fairly convinced that a quality 480p unit is still a little bit better than a quality 1080i unit for 480p native PJs. Logically, and now personally, I think it is better than upscaling/downscaling. But not by much. I'm just being real picky, I'm a perfectionist. Tiny little problems distract me. I like my image as best as possible.


Anyway, it seems to work great for film & movies, but not quite as good for anime. But at this point it is excellent enough. After all, most of the reason I wanted a video upgrade, and bought the projector at the turn of the year, was for LOTR. Specifically, by the time ROTK came out on DVD :D - I beat that by several months. And LOTR looks great!
 

Don_Berg

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1080i is 16:9 only, thats why the Zenith isn't formatting the 4:3 titles correctly they are supposted to pillar-box it within the fixed 16:9 frame for HD output. Thats also why most HDTVs lock to FULL (16:9 fixed) mode only with an HD signal input. The old Video Essentials DVD has lots of video test material including lots of good video-camera material with flags waving - one of the best checks for DCDi operation. Non-DCDi de-interlacers will show jagged lines when the flags wave in the wind if you look closely, but DCDi gets rid of the jaggies in those scenes. I don't want to have to use 2 DVD players (one for 4:3 and one for 16:9) - I expect one DVD player to handle them all great, so for me the XP30 is the best option at this time. If Zenith ever adds proper 4:3 title formatting with 1080i HD output and deals with their other issues, then I might consider it.
 

Steve Schaffer

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Got my dvb-318 yesterday by accident since I wasn't home to take delivery. At work I saw the FedEx truck drive up and decided to ask the driver how to go about picking the player up at the depot. He just happenned to have it on his truck, so I signed for it and took it home.

Spent most of last night playing with it. My set ia a nearly 3 year old Sony KP57HW40, most similar to the current WS-510 series. It's a 57" widescreen crt based rptv with no DVI inputs.

It does require different set calibration than the Panny. The JVC I also own can be calibrated itself so I can use the same settings on the tv set for it and the Panny but I had to store a different calibration in the tv memory for the Zenith, making A/B comparison sorta cumbersome.

I concentrated on anamorphic widescreen and nonanamorphic widescreen with the Zenith set for 1080i and the Panny at 480p--about all I had time for last night. Both players were connected to separate component video inputs on my Pioneer VSX-45TX receiver with identical length and model Monster component video cables, so cabling could not make any difference in pq between the 2 players.

My main concern about upconverting players vs 480p has always been a fear of added digital artifacting as a result of the upconversion.

For about 2 weeks I had an Hitachi rptv which had only 540p and 1080i, and would not do 480p natively and it had a problem with sorta posterized fleshtones on all but native 1080i stuff as a result.

In the case of the Zenith this was not a problem at all. I saw no sign of any digital artifacting or "clay faces", nor any problems with fast motion. This was using 1080i via component, verified by checking incoming scanrate on the tv's service menu.

I watched parts of Underworld, FOTR EE, the new release of ROTK, the DTS Interview with the Vampire, and the non-anamorphic Titanic, and a few special features sections that had in the past caused combing on the JVC but not the Panny.

I also did a little experimentation with AVIA on both players.

There is an anamorphic enhanced resolution test pattern on AVIA, so to keep things as equal as possible I tried it on both machines. The Zenith at 1080i was better able to display this pattern than the Panny at 480p, not by a huge margin but noticeably.

I next tried the sharpness test pattern, one that I've never been able to get satisfactory results on with any of my previous players. Always before I've been unable to get rid of the white ghosting completely even at the lowest setting on the tv, but it reached it's minimum at about a 35% setting and just got softer below that without the ghosting decreasing significantly.

With the Zenith I was able to get rid of the white ghosting completely at about a 50% setting, which may explain the differences in pq when watching regular movies.

The main thing I noticed was an overall smoother image with the Zenith while retaining good sharpness. All the detail was there that was in the same scene on the Panny but the overall image looked more like film and less like video, as if there was less artificial sharpenning going on. Film grain was still visible but not as "in your face". I plan to try some movies with lots of intentional grain like The Godfather to see if the grain that's supposed to be there is artificially smoothed out.

The really good news is with non-anamorphic widescreen. I cannot stand my tv's zoom mode as like most crt based sets it employs a raster expansion which makes scanlines much more visible. This has in the past made the Panny totally unacceptable for nonanamorphic widescreen films like Titanic, Armageddon, Abyss, Some Like it Hot, Silence of the Lambs Criterion, and the many 1:66 MGM titles.

My 2 previous JVCs have handled this fairly well with a bit of fiddling.

I only tried Titanic last night. This worked well on the JVC but it had some de-interlacing problems unless I reset the player to forced film mode, and the JVCs both overscanned a bit. With the Zenith there is an infinitely variable vertical-only zoom. I played an anamorphic 2:35 movie and marked the edges of the black bars with tape on the side frame of the tv screen, then put in Titanic and zoomed it to match. The picture quality was the absolute best I've seen on any player with this film. It did not require the forced film mode like the JVC did, and with the 1080i upconversion and the excellent zoom quality looked as good as any really well transferred anamorphic disc. The spiralling Paramount logo stars at the beginning did not break up or comb like they did on the JVC even in film mode.

I'm going to try the waving flags scene in the old VE tonight, as well as a few of the other scenes mentionned on the Secrets site, and will spend a bit more time on 480p mode.

Queen of the Damned was on HBO-HD last night at 11:30, and I happen to have the dvd so I put the dvd in the Zenith and did a bit of A/B. Results were difficult to evaluate because HBO had zoomed the movie to 1:85 while the dvd is in the OAR of 2:35, and I get HBO-HD off DirecTV and is thus somewhat subject to signal compression. I'm hoping to be able to do a more valid comparison with some movie on one of my local ota HD stations and a dvd in the future.
 

NickSo

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I totally agree with this... Since my X1 does not lock into 16:9 with a 1080i signal, I really like that it DOESN'T pillarbox it.

I hope if they do 'fix' this 'problem', they'll have the option of having it as it is now, along with having it pillarboxed for sets that lock into 16:9 at 1080i.
 

Kym O

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I am interested in purchasing one of the new upscaling DVD players that will output 1080i through it's component cables such as the Zenith DVB318. I am wondering how much of an improvement will it be over my 480p DVD player? Has anyone tried this out yet? Will I be wasting my money?
 

NickSo

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Depending on the display and the comparison player, it could range from huge improvement, to very slight (if any) improvement.

For example, If you go from a $60 Apex progressive scan to the Zenith, on a 100" image, you'd see a huge difference.
But if you went from a top-grade progressive scan player such as the Panasonic RP/XP series with the faroudja chip, on a 27" HDTV, then you'd see little, if any improvement.

And everything else you'd see an improvement inbetween huge and no improvement :)
 

StephenL

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I think that it depends a great deal on how well your display scales the image from the DVD player. On a digital display (DLP, LCD, etc.) the image must be scaled to the native resolution of that display. My NEC LT150 DLP projector has a resolution of 1024 x 576 with a 16:9 screen. The LT150 does a much better job of scaling 1080i than 480p, so the Zenith DVB318 is a welcome improvement over my Panasonic RP91 in that regard.
 

Kevin. W

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I went from a RP82 to LG7832 and the PQ of the LG while upconverting over component was better on my Panasonic 47".

Kevin
 

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