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Upconverting v. Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

LeoA

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Andy, why not just use an upconverting region free player and just send the signal out to the television in a standard HD resolution that matches the HDTV's native resolution? Would seem to be the far more desirable option rather than buying lesser HDTV brands like Vizio's that just happen to support a PAL equivalent of our standard or extended definition resolutions. Would seem to be the best option all around to me. I have a backwards compatible UK Playstation 3, so I'm able to output DVD's from that region in 1080p which makes the entire NTSC/PAL issue a moot point (The same with PSOne and PS2 software from the region, which is the other half of the reason I got this to play some nice Euro exclusive games). I would think any region free player with upscaling capabilities would do similarly for DVD's and make it so it doesn't matter what your television does with a PAL signal since it's recieving an international standard HD resolution instead..
 

AndyMcKinney

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LeoAmes said:
Andy, why not just use an upconverting region free player and just send the signal out to the television in a standard HD resolution that matches the HDTV's native resolution?
Because it still converts it to a US-standard framerate. If the HDTV does not support PAL framerates, then the picture has to undergo a standards conversion (to 480i) before being up-rezzed. You cannot send a pure, unconverted signal to a HDTV if its internal software doesn't support all the framerates. I did this with my grandmother's HDTV by hooking up a Philips DVD player. When I hooked it up with the composite cables and set my TV system to PAL, I got a PAL picture (because it supported PAL on the composite hookups). Got a nice, clean image that looked like it was supposed to (it was a shot-on-tape BBC sitcom, and it still looked shot-on-tape). When I hooked it up with the HDMI output, the player would not allow me to select PAL as the TV system, so the player converted the signal to NTSC/480 before upscaling. It then took on all the same characteristics of a picture that's been player-converted (the picture was darker and the picture took on a more jerky film-like appearance). A VERY noticeable difference. Trust me, I've done the research. ALL standard definition material gets upscaled, HOWEVER, it's all down to your player AND television as to whether PAL material will get upscaled from its true 576i/50 resolution, or whether it's forced to be converted to 480i/60 before being upconverted to HD (or whether your TV can even cope with the upconversion from PAL or you're forced to still do a standards conversion to NTSC).
Would seem to be the far more desirable option rather than buying lesser HDTV brands like Vizio's that just happen to support a PAL equivalent of our standard or extended definition resolutions. Would seem to be the best option all around to me.
I've seen the difference in quality a compatible display can make and it's by far more preferable than buying a display that was intentionally crippled by its manufacturers. Besides, I'd hardly consider Sharp a "lesser" brand, and if you do your own in-store research, you'll find that some other supposedly better displays, like Sony and LG, will support PAL framerates, at least over HDMI and Component, as long as your player is able to output a pure signal.
I have a backwards compatible UK Playstation 3, so I'm able to output DVD's from that region in 1080p which makes the entire NTSC/PAL issue a moot point (The same with PSOne and PS2 software from the region, which is the other half of the reason I got this to play some nice Euro exclusive games).
Ah, but the UK PS3 outputs a native PAL signal for PAL material and also outputs native 1080/50i for Blu-Rays that are such-encoded because unlike the US, the UK requires all their hardware manufacturers to be universally compatible with all broadcast standards (especially HD). The US only requires compatibility with US standards. So, your UK player is really outputting PAL, and the display is upscaling it (properly) from the 576i signal, unless the PS3 has an "NTSC" mode that you've set it to. [qutoe]I would think any region free player with upscaling capabilities would do similarly for DVD's and make it so it doesn't matter what your television does with a PAL signal since it's recieving an international standard HD resolution instead..[/quote] Not quite true. The Philips DVD player I mentioned previously forces down-conversion of PAL material to NTSC before upscaling, so each player handles things differently. There's a whole forum thread over on AV Science devoted to telling you which US Blu-Ray players are capable of playing 1080i/50 discs (and which ones are not, plus which ones convert the 50hz signal to 60hz). So, trust me, the PAL/NTSC issue is not dead if you're concerned with the absolute best picture quality. It still takes a compatible display (and player that can output the signal without internal conversion) to get the best quality. I did a lot of reading and research on this subject before buying my first HDTV and did real-world tests in-store.
 

smithb

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Just to add on to Andy's post with a bit of personal experience. I picked up a Marantz 4009 DVD player a while back because of it's easily adjusted region free capability and PAL support. Interestingly, it can output PAL or NTSC over analog (component, s-video) and digital connections (hdmi). However, if I needed to have PAL converted to NTSC because my output device could only support NTSC, this would only work through the analog connections. My theory on this is simply that the player uses a different chipset combination depending on the connection type, and it just so happens the analog chipset includes PAL->NTSC and NTSC->PAL conversion support. Most likely the same chipset used in most Phillips player that provide the same support. Now in my case, I can support PAL in my Sony projector so I have my player set to send the native signal from the disk with no conversion. On a side note, I have tested the scaling support between my projector and my DVD players (Marantz and Denon 2900) and see no noticeable difference between sending a 1080 or 480p signal from the Marantz player or a 480p signal from the Denon. So my projector has comparable scaling capabilities. I have not tested it yet from my Oppo BD83 which may have superior processing capabilities. But, based on my understanding, where players like the Oppo really shine is in their handling of problem-some disks that have excess jaggies, red blooming, or macroblocking.
 

AndyMcKinney

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smithb said:
I have not tested it yet from my Oppo BD83 which may have superior processing capabilities. But, based on my understanding, where players like the Oppo really shine is in their handling of problem-some disks that have excess jaggies, red blooming, or macroblocking.
The BDP83 has excellent scaling capabilities in my experience (at least, through HDMI, which is the only connection I've used with it) and, important to note, is NTSC/PAL/MULTI switchable (and 1080i/50 compatible).
 

smithb

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AndyMcKinney said:
The BDP83 has excellent scaling capabilities in my experience (at least, through HDMI, which is the only connection I've used with it) and, important to note, is NTSC/PAL/MULTI switchable (and 1080i/50 compatible).
The only problem for me is the region-free aspect. As I understand it, you can go with a hardware mod or a hacked firmware update. Neither of which interest me at this time whether from a cost, support, or warrantee perspective. Especially, since my Marantz can handle my region-free needs and my Denon for standard DVD playback. So for now the Oppo is used primarily for bluray playback since I can't use it as the "one player to replace all other players". Now this is also partially laziness since my other players have all been setup in my Harmony remote and the Oppo has not.
 

AndyMcKinney

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smithb said:
The only problem for me is the region-free aspect. As I understand it, you can go with a hardware mod or a hacked firmware update. Neither of which interest me at this time whether from a cost, support, or warrantee perspective. Especially, since my Marantz can handle my region-free needs and my Denon for standard DVD playback. So for now the Oppo is used primarily for bluray playback since I can't use it as the "one player to replace all other players". Now this is also partially laziness since my other players have all been setup in my Harmony remote and the Oppo has not.
The hardware modification, however, is extremely simple to do (pretty much unplugging two wires and plugging them into the modification board), plus the mod is pretty inexpensive. I went this route because that firmware hack doesn't work with the latest firmware (the hardware fix is permanent, plus it unlocks the Blu-Ray regions, too).
 

smithb

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AndyMcKinney said:
The hardware modification, however, is extremely simple to do (pretty much unplugging two wires and plugging them into the modification board), plus the mod is pretty inexpensive. I went this route because that firmware hack doesn't work with the latest firmware (the hardware fix is permanent, plus it unlocks the Blu-Ray regions, too).
My Denon is about 7 years old now and the drawer is sticking so maybe I'll look into the hardware modification. Thanks.
 

AndyMcKinney

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smithb said:
My Denon is about 7 years old now and the drawer is sticking so maybe I'll look into the hardware modification. Thanks.
to me, it's well worth it. It's region-free for DVD 100% of the time (no codes or switching). For Blu-Ray, you simply have to press a single button each time you change the region, and you only have to do that for discs that are region-locked (I don't know of any Blu-Ray players--of the few that can even be made region-free--that don't require the region to be manually selected each time).
 

smithb

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You're right, just $35 for a very straight forward installation of a hardware mod. Up to this point I've found quite a few region free bluray disks sold more cheaply in the UK. This opens the door to even more deals in the future. Thanks for the subtle push because I haven't looked into this since picking up my player almost two years ago.
 

LeoA

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I'll take your word for it, Andy. Clearly you know a heck of a lot more about it than I do, so I'm sure what you're stating is accurate. Thanks for answering my questions.
AndyMcKinney said:
Ah, but the UK PS3 outputs a native PAL signal for PAL material and also outputs native 1080/50i for Blu-Rays that are such-encoded because unlike the US, the UK requires all their hardware manufacturers to be universally compatible with all broadcast standards (especially HD). The US only requires compatibility with US standards. So, your UK player is really outputting PAL, and the display is upscaling it (properly) from the 576i signal, unless the PS3 has an "NTSC" mode that you've set it to.
I have it set to 1080p, so I assume it's upscaling them properly and isn't first converting them to NTSC standards before processing the image into HD. The thing even has dual voltage support, so no need for a stepup converter to supply it with 220 volts. Was a good buy for someone interested in some classic releases that were exclusive to Europe on DVD and some exclusive games. Killed two birds with one stone with no need for any voltage adapter or worrying if my television supported PAL signals.
 

AndyMcKinney

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LeoAmes said:
I'll take your word for it, Andy. Clearly you know a heck of a lot more about it than I do, so I'm sure what you're stating is accurate. Thanks for answering my questions. I have it set to 1080p, so I assume it's upscaling them properly and isn't first converting them to NTSC standards before processing the image into HD.
That would appear to be the case.
The thing even has dual voltage support, so no need for a stepup converter to supply it with 220 volts. Was a good buy for someone interested in some classic releases that were exclusive to Europe on DVD and some exclusive games. Killed two birds with one stone with no need for any voltage adapter or worrying if my television supported PAL signals.
The good news is it looks like your TV supports native PAL framerates (at least, over HDMI), so if looks like your setup (TV + British PS3) isn't introducing any unnecessary conversions into the equation. Good show, old bean!
 

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