Universal players and SACD-PCM conversion (1 Viewer)

[John H]

I thought I read that the upcoming Denon DVD-2900 would offer time alignment adjustment for SACD, but I don't recall reading anything about DSD-to-PCM conversion.

Jeff Talmage Product Manager, DENON Electronics (USA), Inc. comments on the new DVD-2900

John

 

[LanceJ]

Maybe this will calm some nerves:

Volume levels can be controlled in the analog domain but using digital-based controlling circuitry. So even if a player uses an on-screen level system it might not be doing any conversions at all.

Here is a chip that does this "Logarithmic" or "log" basically refers to how the human ear senses sound levels; i.e. our hearing isn't linear. That full data sheet .pdf file explains the chip's operation.

The Anthem AVM20 uses this system (this picture used to be much clearer)

Here's another example on an ultra-high-end preamp.

BTW: the best PCM digital-to-analog (DAC) convertors also use resistor ladders >>> "multi-bit DAC". But they are pricey, partly because their individual resistors are trimmed by a laser for accuracy's sake. 1-bit PCM DACs aren't as accurate but are much cheaper to manufacture.

LJ

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Someone mentioned on AVS that the head of Linn claimed PCM conversion could not be transparent...but failed a blind test comparing it.

Michael, can you provide a link please? I would love to learn more about the blind test and what happened. Hopefully the details were recorded...I'm no fan of Linn products which I find way pricey for their mediocre sound. Thanks.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Lee- We all know that the original 47a had some questions concerning SACD sound quality. I personally would appreciate any references to issues with the 45a and 47ai, because frankly, I haven't seen any negative comments concerning them. In fact, the Perfect Vision (sister pub to the Absolute Sound) has said quite a few nice things about both of them. (Some DVD player buying guide they did an issue or two ago. I could dig up that exact ref if you'd like. )

 

[LanceJ]

cranky post warning!.........

The last magazine I'm going to trust reviewing a $700 component is TAS. IMO they have no clue anymore what it takes to produce good sound unless it comes with a wine and cheese basket & packed in a satin-lined mahogany box.

LJ

 

[Steve_AS]

Lee- We all know that the original 47a had some questions concerning SACD sound quality. I personally would appreciate any references to issues with the 45a and 47ai, because frankly, I haven't seen any negative comments concerning them.

Regarding what 'we all know":

The questions concerning the sound quality of the Pioneers that I've seen in audio forums (including magazines) all come from people doing *at best*, sighted A/B comparisons. If you believe that sort of thing gives valid results for digital playback devices, such questions might be of concern. Apart from the reliability issues inherent in sighted comparison, I see too much of a 'herd mentality' in audiophilia to give much credence to them, myself. The stuff that audio hobbyists 'all know' is too often highly questionable if not outright wrong, from a scientific standpoint.

IIRC, I did see one review in one of the three major mass market HT magazines (don't recall which, but it wasn't S&V) of the 45a where they said it sounded worse than the *47a* to the reviewer and a friend, in a blind comparison, but unfortunately there were no test details provided beyond that claim.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

The last magazine I'm going to trust reviewing a $700 component is TAS. IMO they have no clue anymore what it takes to produce good sound unless it comes with a wine and cheese basket & packed in a satin-lined mahogany box.

That is a cranky comment Lance considering that TAS for the past three years has been doing a superb job of covering gear in the $500-$1,000 range, the middle of which the Pioneer sits. They have superb reviewers, many of whom have electrical and circuit design background. I think it is currently the best high end journal out there.

 

[Justin Lane]

Pioneer's Elite combo connects via 1 wire, and reportedly (Dave Ranada in Sound & Vision) does full BM and time alignment on all formats. That sounds recommendable to me. Wish I could afford one!

But if I am not mistaken, even though the audio goes from the DVD-A/SACD player digitally on the Pioneers with the i.link, once it is inside the receiver, the SACD signal is once again converted to PCM for bass management and time alignment. Not an ideal solution.

The best solution currently is buying an ICBM and placing your speakers equidistant from the listening position.

J

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Well, I'm waiting for the Marantz 8400 anyway! Hrumph. So there.

I'm just hoping also no chroma bug and complete BM and robust build quality like the 2900. Don't know if I'll be able to wait if the 2900 starts getting really good reviews!

I like the 47ai I have but I also believe that manufacturers who put out "faulty" products should be punished. I.e., the chroma bug, and incomplete BM for DVD-A...

[Added] Some be-itch! Lookey what I just found:

DV8400 SACD/CD/DVD/MP3 PLAYER FEATURES

* RS232c terminal for control
* DVI-D Output (25 pin with HDCP)
* All Copper Chassis
* Redesigned audio section
* THX Select Certified - Adhearing to this specification allows us to offer the best overall performance for the money.
* Ulimate versatility - plays DVD video, DVD-A,DVD-R, DVD-RW SACD, CD, CD-R, CD-RW, MP-3 based CD-Roms and Video CD
* DSD based SACD Chipset for Increased Dynamic Range and Resolution over the more commonly used Multi-bit chipsets.
* Separate power supplies for the audio and video sections.
* Oversized power supply
* Marantz proprietary HDAM output devices replace cheap "op amps" found in many other (even more expensive) players - the result is a much more detailed and accurate reproduction of the music or movie source.

INPUTS/OUTPUTS

* VIDEO
* DVI-D Output: x1
* Component Video Output: x1
* S-Video Output: x1
* Composite Video Output: x2
* AUDIO
* 6ch Analog Audio Output: x1
* 2ch Analog Audio Output: x1
* Digital Audio Output
* Coaxial: x1
* Optical: x1
* Remote In: x1
* Remote Out: x1

SPECIFICATIONS

* THX-Select Certified
* DVD-Audio, Multi-Ch/Two-Ch SACD, CD, CD-R/RW, MP3
* DVD-Video, DVD-R/RW, VCD Playback
* Digital Progressive-Scan Component Video Output
* Identical Discrete Multi-Ch Audio Circuit with Marantz HDAM
* Superb Quality 192 kHz/24-bit Audio-DAC by Cirrus Logic Inc.
* Audio “Bass-Management” function for SACD
* Exclusive Power Transformer for Audio circuit
* Built-in Dolby Digital and DTS Decoder
* “Zero-Impedance” Copper Ground Plate for Analog
* Multi-Ch Output
* Double-Layered Chassis Construction
* Fine Tunable “Video Adjust” function
* User Friendly On-Screen menu
* “Video-Off/ Display-Off” Function for Audio Source Playback

GENERAL

* Color: Black/Black
* Front Panel: Aluminum
* Remote Control: RC8300DV
* Power Requirements: AC120 V 60 Hz
* Power Consumption (On / Standby): 19 W/

 

[Rich Malloy]

While CD playback (especially with Legato Pro engaged) stands out for a DVD player in its price range, DVD-A and SACD are suspect. SACDs, in particular, sound freeze-dried, in striking contrast to the warm, detailed, natural sound heard from that format with other players.

This is right inline with everything I've heard about this player, and is also a very good description of the sound I heard on my friend's Sony CE775 when he brought it over to compare against the 555ES.

The major difference between these two players, of course, is that the Pioneer costs over $1000 ($1199 MSRP), whereas the 775 is closer to $200. But no DVD-A you say? Add on the cost of a progressive scan, DVD-A capable player like the tasty little Denon DV-1600 with the Faroudja DCDi ($499 MSRP), plus the cost of cables and switchboxes, and you've still got the Pioneer 47a beat by hundreds of dollars and better sound quality... though admittedly a bigger rat's nest of cables!

I understand the convenience of the one-box solution, but I've yet to see one that's worth the price-tag. It's a shame the C555ES is no longer on the market, but if you're spending the kind of money they're asking for the universal players, I'd recommend the Sony C222ES or comparable plus the Denon DV-1600 or comparable. I mean, why spend more for less?

 

[AaronBatiuk]

Michael Bishop appears to be seriously misinformed.

Sony SACD players with bass management use a "DSD DSP" IC developed and manufactured by Sony and based on their DSD DSP technology used in their DSD recording/mastering gear.

reading the original post, it is not clear whether he intended to mean it as a blanket statement covering any and all SACD players, or not. The quote in his post specifically referenced a Yamaha DVD-Audio/SACD player, and he was responding to that quote. However, in another reply he stated that ""Most" players - Sony and otherwise - are not going to handle bass management issues in the analog domain due to cost issues. That leaves only one place to handle functions like that: pcm DSP. To get there, regardless of the make of player, most players convert DSD to pcm by way of the Sony SBM chip. The SBM process was miniaturized to a single chip by Sony for this purpose.". Sorry, Michael. Wrong.

The SCD-CE775 (the lowest cost Sony SACD player with bass management) uses a Sony DSD DSP part number CXD9647R (which you can find as part number 8-759-833-14 at Sony's service parts website.) This player has no SBM (super bit master) IC, and no other DSP in which to do PCM DSP operations.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Aaron, I have no idea whether Michael Bishop is informed or not, or whether the bass management in the Sonys are performed via PCM conversion or some other method.

But I do know this: when I engage the bass management on my Sony C555ES, the quality of the signal is severely degraded.

And I wish those of you with greater technical sophistication than the rest us of would simply address this. If not PCM conversion, then what is causing it? And if you're actually claiming that the bass management circuitry employed by Sony doesn't in fact degrade the signal, then my C555ES must be defective and I should make use of that 5-year warranty, toute-suite. Is this, in fact, what you're suggesting?

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Rich- Maybe when you switch to BM on the player, it puts your speakers out of phase with your sub. (Vs your pre pro or receiver.)

Or maybe you're not compensating for the 10 dB boost that DD/DTS puts into the sub signal that SACD and DVD-A don't.

47ai, not the 47a... Mayeb it was a different mag I'm remembering.

 

[Rich Malloy]

I don't use a sub for music, Kevin! But even when I engage the bass management as "four large no sub" (or, for that matter, any bass management permutation offered on the C555ES), the signal is degraded.

As for the Pioneer 47a, you may well be remembering a different magazine, but I haven't read anything positive about the Pioneer 47a's performance on SACDs (this has nothing to do with poor bass management implementation; simply poor playback generally). But, and this is of utmost significance, I haven't ever heard a 47a play SACDs. So, I remain agnostic as to its playback abilities (or lack thereof).

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Sony SACD players with bass management use a "DSD DSP" IC developed and manufactured by Sony and based on their DSD DSP technology used in their DSD recording/mastering gear.

Thanks Aaron for this. I remember reading about the capability on Sony's pro site with their new workstations and those of Sadie. Michael is a good, well-respected engineer so perhaps he made this comment before the capability was added or he just missed on this one.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

47ai!!

They changed the DACs from Cirrus back to Burr Browns (what most Pioneer DVD players and even their CD players had had up to that point), and they changed other "internal stuff" because the 47a had no DVD-A BM, and but the 47ai does have DVD-A BM for 2.0 and 5.1.

For the $600 I paid for mine, good enough for right now. Just waiting for the reviews on the 2900, and now I'm curious about that there thang the 3900, whenever it shall be available...

 

[Stephen Dodds]

As I mentioned, WSR and some of the UK mags have had nice things to say about the 47A or equivalent.

However, I still get my pinch of salt antenna twitching when I read even some of the descriptions in this thread, ie TPV describing the Pioneer as 'freeze-dried' and Lee describing it as 'soft'.

Those would appear once again to be diametrically opposed.

I do agree that the Pioneer 47Ai and the SCD-CE775 sound similar (and I have them both), although I would draw a slightly different conclusion.


Steve

 

[AaronBatiuk]

Michael is a good, well-respected engineer so perhaps he made this comment before the capability was added or he just missed on this one.

Entirely possible. For the two or three years of SACD, no DSP technology existed that could process DSD directly. Since then, Sony wizards have come up with such a technology.

 

[Craig_Kg]

Is the Philips 963SA a DSD->PCM->analog player. Someone accused it of being so.

 

[Steve_AS]

But if I am not mistaken, even though the audio goes from the DVD-A/SACD player digitally on the Pioneers with the i.link, once it is inside the receiver, the SACD signal is once again converted to PCM for bass management and time alignment. Not an ideal solution.

It only matters if you can hear it. And I suspect that if SACD *is* being converted from DSD to PCM in the Pioneer duo, it's at a 'high rezolution' bitrate/depth. Certainly Mr. Ranada seemed pleased with what he heard!