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Universal DVD-Audio press release. (long) (1 Viewer)

Lee Scoggins

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Comparing DSD and PCM sampling rates is comparing apples and oranges.
Yes, that's what I have often repeated. A better way to describe it is that PCM looks at the height of the waveform and DSD rides the wave by looking at the changes in height. In either one, you are just approximating.

The great thing about analog tape and other analog sources is that you don't lose musical information.

Regarding the Chesky Super Audio discs. I found out something surprising tonight from Barry Wolifson, the chief engineer...the SACDs are all analog to DSD conversions. So I must take back my comments regarding PCM to DSD using the New York Reunion as an example. Prior conversations had led me to believe that the PCM masters were the source of the SACDs, but in fact all the Chesky CDs are based on the analog tapes Bob Katz (or Barry's team) recorded during the sessions.

That explains the better sonics. We really are listening to an analog source sampled to DSD. No wonder they sound so good. :)

So what does Barry like? Analog.

He simply feels that digital audio still sounds terrible whether PCM or DSD.

I also found out today that Michael Hobson is working on a DVD Audio disc that has 24/192 DVD Audio on one side and a DAD 24/96 playable on DVD players on the other.

Mark Waldrep, is AIX still going to have a "hybrid" DVD Audio disc out soon?
 

Mark_Waldrep

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I chringe every time I hear someone elevate analog recording to audio perfection status. Returning to restricted dynamic range, background hiss, wow and flutter, inter-channel distortion and limited frequency range are not my idea of ultimate audio.

That explains the better sonics. We really are listening to an analog source sampled to DSD. No wonder they sound so good.
I have worked with a large number of analog recordings being transfered to high-resolution PCM digital. The classic "Circle" album, the "Soular Energy" Ray Brown project and others have been captured at 96 kHz/24-bits and 192 kHz/24-bits. The PCM transfers sound every bit as wonderful as the original masters...far better than any consumer has heard in their home. But, compared to making a completely new recording with the finest mics, preamps, wire and state-of-the-art high-resolution PCM recorders, the analog world just cannot compete with regards to the parameters that I mentioned above.

Analog was terrific, I've used my Nagra and other analog recorders for almost 30 years, but it is not the "holy grail" of recording. With the new high-resolution digital recording equipment (pick your flavor DSD or PCM), it is possible to go well beyond the limitations of analog. I for one will never go back...the results I get are so much better than analog.
 

Lee Scoggins

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I chringe every time I hear someone elevate analog recording to audio perfection status. Returning to restricted dynamic range, background hiss, wow and flutter, inter-channel distortion and limited frequency range are not my idea of ultimate audio.
I was surprised by Barry's admission as well.

For source material, it does seem to my ears that the best SACDs are those from an analog tape source like the Tyner New York Reunion. Chesky has been using quarter inch master tapes for all its SACDs.

Mark, I have a few more questions for you if you don't mind:

1. What A to D are you using?

Barry seems fond of the Prism AD2 and I was curious about AIX recording chain. This is a $10K deck and for the time out of our recording team's budget.

2. What microphones do you like?

I am been impressed with the Soundfield mics recently.

3. What do you think of the difference between 24/96 and 24/192?

I have heard 24/192 on a few occasions and been very impressed, similar to good DSD recording on a very high end SACD machine. Interestingly, Barry feels that 24/192 has only been equal or less sonically transparent under tests he has done at Sterling and Chesky. I would expect that all else being equal the higher sampling rate would be better. Barry speculated that the decimation filters and implementation may be the root cause for his findings.
 

LanceJ

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The great thing about analog tape and other analog sources is that you don't lose musical information.
True.

BUT musical info can get buried under: tape hiss, resulting in its inaudibility; crummy tape formulations; incorrectly used noise reduction systems; phase errors (i.e. misaligned tape heads), vinyl's crackles & pops; the cartridge's mechanical and electrical distortions, electronic component thermal noise problems, long chains of analog components where small distortions are added to one another, so eventually obliterating small details; worn potentiometers (level & EQ controls) and more. And if they aren't buried, the music signals can be twisted and mutated by these same processes, the result being that the signal coming out not being what was originally put in.

Digital has problems too, but IMO it has a lot less to distort the music.

LJ
 

Lee Scoggins

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BUT musical info can get buried under: tape hiss, resulting in its inaudibility; crummy tape formulations; incorrectly used noise reduction systems; phase errors (i.e. misaligned tape heads), vinyl's crackles & pops; the cartridge's mechanical and electrical distortions, electronic component thermal noise problems, long chains of analog components where small distortions are added to one another, so eventually obliterating small details; worn potentiometers (level & EQ controls) and more.
Lance, this can happen but I have a slightly different take on analog due to one experience I had when working in RCA Studio A in the early 90s.

I had been working on a digital recording session when I was introduced to one of BMG/RCA's classical mastering engineers-Dennis Ferrante. He was working with some analog tapes from the 50s and 60s down the hall and we got listen to his project in midstream. This was a good analog tape machine playing very old (30 years+) analog tape of great classical performances. The sound was to die for...wide dynamic range, smooth midrange, sharp & realistic transients...just wonderful. The brain just tunes out the tape hiss after a while.

Before I heard this, I thought tape had real limitations (and it does in some areas), but done properly they can sound great and some very respected engineers like Barry or Michael Bishop or Steve Hoffman think they often sound better than anything today.
 

Mark_Waldrep

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The KISS Symphony DVD project was completed and put special FEDEX to London...another deadline complete.

A couple of answers for Lee...

We use a combination of converters: my favorite is the Model-2 from Pacific Microsonics...a beautiful piece of equipment with a terrific ability to capture analog and convert to digital.

For the majority of large multitrack projects we use the Euphonix converters at the front end of the R-1 digital recorder. It has 36 tracks all running at high resolution...really great sound. As good as the best free standing ones with the exception of the Model-2. I've tried dCS, Prism, Lucid, Apogee and db Technologies.

The mics of choice are always usually large diaphragm condensors from Neumann or Schoeps. I have been including large ribbon mics from AEA (Audio Engineering Associates). My friend Wes Dooley is the guru of ribbons and remanufactures part for part the RCA 44 and 84 from the 40's. Cannot be surpassed for brass and even vocals. The Jennifer Warnes vocal was captured using a Brauner VM-1 with the Klaus Hyne mod.

On the topic of analog...it can sound really great, I agree. But well done high-resolution PCM digital can sound better...especially with regards to dynamic range...tape can't come close. Of course, in most heavily limited commercial recordings, dynamics are removed!
 

Paul.S

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"Good grief, Charlie Brown."

Just a little over three weeks ago, I bought George Strait's Honkytonkville SACD on its street date, July 15. (Even though it's a hybrid of a new album, UMG still released a standard CD . . . a month earlier than the SACD.)

Now here's word of a DVD-A of the same album.

What the frick is UMG doing? Of course, my question presumes that they know, and I'm increasingly under the impression that they don't. Seems like this is a classic example of a record company throwing a buncha stuff at the wall in an attempt to see what sticks and what slides . . . Even if, per Mark Waldrep's posts, UMG has intended all along--even prior to their press release announcing support but not mentioning any titles--to release DVD-As, did anyone think they would not only split an artist's UMG discography between the formats (such as with Diana Krall), but also release the same album on both SACD and DVD-A?

At least I'm seeing verification of my long-held suspicion that precluded me from buying as many DTS CDs as I had a mind to a few years ago: artists/engineers/producers who were interested enough in surround to do DTS CDs will probably eventually release those titles in hi rez surround.

There's no reference in the Honkytonkville liner notes to DSD (only the DSD logo on the back of the album), so I think the DVD-A announcement might arguably, tacitly confirm my suspicion that--although this is a new album--it is not a new DSD recording. (Anyone else wish there was something like an "Original DSD Recording" logo that would be used only on all such new DSD recordings?).

Now if we could only get the studios to let us know if a digital master was a source for a high-res release, and what the rate/depth of that master was. Fortunately with the Steely Dan disc we know that a 24/96 master was the source for the surround version. Those of us who want the original format can buy DVD-A and get the 'real thing'.

And if a release was sourced from a DSD master, I would certainly buy the SACD version if possible.
Amen, Michael.

(Interesting aside: the standard Pacific Microsonics HDCD trademark verbiage appears in the liner notes, but the HDCD light on my Mitsu DD-8020 doesn't light up when playing the Honkytonkville hybrid disc's CD layer.)

Any other George (and Vince Gill) fans here? This makes me further wonder about Vince Gill's latest album, this year's Next Big Thing. It's his first album since 2000 and I have been wondering since it's release why a major artist with DTS CDs in the marketplace wouldn't at this point in the hi rez game prepare a hi rez release to street (maybe day-and-date) with the standard CD. I've wondered if it has anything to do with this being the first album of Vince's career not produced by Tony Brown.

Here I was all psyched to buy UMG SACDs such as John Hiatt's Bring the Family and--as soon as next Tuesday--Shania's Up! and now they're announcing these titles for DVD-A also?

Also, I'm sure retail is thrilled about this.

The inclusion of videos sways me in favor of the DVD-As on titles for which there are dual releases.

Anyone else wondering how SoundScan is going to handle these multiple releases of the same album?

Sheesh--I was fretting about what I'm gonna do with all my MoFi's in the face of all these hi rez announements. Now this wrinkle. It seems to me that it makes good hi rez reviews even more important.

Paul
 

Robert A. Willis Jr.

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I still don't understand the reasoning for delivering the multichannel tracks at 44.1/24. For my money they need to get the sound right. Can't they use the multiple layers and give us the highest resolution possible (if they insist on loading the disk with video and other "extras")?

Doesn't DVD-A have enough problems with sparse and gernally inane titles as it is?
 

Lee Scoggins

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Anyone else wondering how SoundScan is going to handle these multiple releases of the same album?
More than likely Soundscan won't do anything besides creating a different catalog number for each title. :laugh: Perhaps they will add up the similar titles for the total sales, but that could be complex.

I think the industry needs to put the source on the jewel box for either Super Audio or DVDA. Was it a 16/44.1 master, a 24/96, a pure DSD? If DSD was a late generation workstation used to edit?

Many audiophile labels like Chesky, APO, Telarc, Reference, etc. put in liner notes that list equipment (and ideally mic placement charts) as well which can be very helpful in forming opinions about what works and does not.

Sometimes the best one can do is find an article in Mix Magazine or Pro Sound that describes the process...
 

Justin Lane

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Doesn't DVD-A have enough problems with sparse and gernally inane titles as it is?
Huh? :confused:

Who would you like to see on DVD-A? Looking at mt collection, I have titles from Steely Dan, Queen, Fleetwood Mac, The Doors, Elvis, Neil Young, REM, The Band, The Beach Boys, Donald Fagen, Deep Purple, and the Grateful Dead to name a few. Of course I would like more titles, but DVD-A as thus far been big on multichannel, and these mixes take time. I don't consider these titles inane in anyway, though yor definition may differ :rolleyes

J
 

Robert A. Willis Jr.

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Justin,

I now understand that some HiRes titles have been up-sampled and issued as DVD-A's. Some of these titles I have some concern about. I have about 5 Silverline titles that don't sound good and moreover the music isn't very good either (not the best by these artists), hence inane. I also have three DTS disks (Brazilian ....) that are best characterized as lite jazz and aren't interesting. Unfortunately there isn't the opportunity to listen before buying.

I do agree that someone else may thoroughly enjoy these titles. For instance I am not interested in buying many Rock titles since I have a good number of Rock LP's. I am much more into Jazz and R&B. I have only three of the artists that you listed (Doors, Steely Dan and Donald Fagen). But I wouldn't characterize most of the other titles as inane either.

I now have 28 DVD-A's and another 11 DAD's. There are only about another 25 titles that I will purchase. On the other hand, I have a number of hybrid SACD's and there are about 300 or more SACD titles I would purchase if I had an SACD player (which is why I am so interested in an excellent Uni-player) but won't because of shelf space constraints.

No point to doing so on digital recordings. Video and extras are not hurting the audio quality in any way. You get what you get, when it comes to original masters.
You are absolutely correct, sometimes I lose sight of that.

Bob Willis
 

Justin Lane

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I do agree that someone else may thoroughly enjoy these titles. For instance I am not interested in buying many Rock titles since I have a good number of Rock LP's. I am much more into Jazz and R&B. I have only three of the artists that you listed (Doors, Steely Dan and Donald Fagen). But I wouldn't characterize most of the other titles as inane either.
I agree with you on this point. When it comes to Jazz, DVD-A is lacking severely. Warner is sitting on a gold mine of Jazz with their Atlantic recordings, but has yet to release one classic Atlantic Jazz title in Hi-res. Their reasoning behind this was true multichannel was not possible due to the original masters. With Warner supposedly releasing Neil Young in stereo only DVD-A next month, maybe they have changed their stance and we will see some more Hi-res Jazz.

That being said, SACD is definitely the place to go for Jazz, especially with the Columbia Jazz catalog.

J
 

Mike Broadman

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Oh snap, Warner owns Atlantic?

God... all that Coltrane and Mingus and Coleman that they're not releasing.

Tsk tsk.
 

Mark_Waldrep

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That being said, SACD is definitely the place to go for Jazz, especially with the Columbia Jazz catalog.
Remember you have two choices...recaptured catalog tracks (such as you mention from Atlantic or Columbia) or new recordings. On either front, DVD-A is not severely lacking. I'm partners in Hi-Res Music, a label dedicated to issuing redone catalog in high-resolution two-channel (Concord and EMI). Our recent release of Ray Brown's Soular Energy in 96 kHz/24-bits and 192 kHz/24-bits was the best reviewed among the three flavors that reissued that catalog piece (SACD and LP). Having had the original master two-tracks in my room, I can tell you that the 192 kHz digital version was absolutely indistinguishable from the master...although not the same as a new recording.

On the new recordings front, my territory. There's a reason why the Jim DeJulio Quintet has received such high marks. Players like the late Conte Candoli on trumpet playing with Pete Christlieb and Joe LaBarbera in true high-resolution 5.1 surround may not be John Coltrane or Mile Davis...but the fidelity is much, much better! Check out David Garfield, Paul Smith, Grant Geissman or Laurence Juber and I think you'll see that DVD-A has more new jazz than SACD. AIX Records has recorded almost 10 projects...and will be putting out more.

Lee, your question about 192 kHz/24 as opposed to 96 kHz/24 bits has a couple of facets. For new recordings, it's been difficult to get enough good converters that run at 192 kHz. The Model-2 from Pacific Microsonics is the only game playing...dCS, Meitner, Lucid and others are lacking. So how do I capture a big band in the multitrack way the a I prefer. I can't. The times that I have done it...you're right 192 kHz is definitely an improvement...much better than anything I've every heard. You claim that it approaches DSD...I would go much further and claim it's the best digital representation ever...better than DSD.

96/24 is the only high-resolution multitrack flavor that I can deliver on DVD-Audio that allows me to use my techniques and tools. The combination of things that we're doing coupled with the technology is working for me.
 

Lee Scoggins

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Check out David Garfield, Paul Smith, Grant Geissman or Laurence Juber and I think you'll see that DVD-A has more new jazz than SACD.
I'll definitely check out these titles, but to be fair there is a lot of new jazz on SACD also.

Thanks again Mark for your comments and answers to my many questions. I always like to learn what people are doing and I think the AIX discs sound among the best in both performance and sonics and that's what it is all about. :emoji_thumbsup:
 

Lee Scoggins

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Oh yeah, one more thing...I hope that BluRay or newer DVDA implementations allow enough data storage to do all the channels in a full 192K.

I would just love to hear a well done multi-channel DVDA in 192K. I bet it would sound awesome.
 

KeithH

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Mike said:

Oh snap, Warner owns Atlantic?

God... all that Coltrane and Mingus and Coleman that they're not releasing.
WEA = Warner-Elektra-Atlantic ;)

Unfortunately, it looks like history is repeating itself. WEA was very slow to release its classic jazz catalog on CD. I collect early CD pressings (discs pressed in West Germany and Japan between 1982 and 1985), and to my knowledge, WEA released no Coltrane or Mingus during these early years. Most of the jazz that WEA released in those days were more modern titles. Artists include David Sanborn, Earl Klugh, Jean Luc-Ponty, Jimmy Smith, and Sadao Watanabe. Although Smith and Watanabe had been around for a long time, WEA released newer titles in the early years on its Elektra Musician label.

I always get pi$$ed that there are no West German or Japanese CD pressings of titles like My Favorite Things or Giant Steps. :angry:
 

KeithH

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Speaking of Atlantic, WEA isn't exactly rushing to get Led Zeppelin's catalog out on DVD-Audio. :angry:
 

John Kotches

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Lee,

Nope -- at the moment Meridian is "limited" to 24/96K for digital transfers. I've been told by people in a position to know at Meridian that the limitation is software based. In case you're wondering, "people" refers to Bob Stuart and Duncan Smith (head of Product Development).

Certainly they have the DAC pieces in place in their latest products -- 861v3/v4 and 800v3 use Analog Devices 1853s, and 568.2MM/598DP use Analog Devices 1852s which are capable of 24bit/192K decoding.

The 800v3 DVD machine can do 24bit/192K D/A conversion with or without volume control, but cannot pass the signal digitally. The 598DP DVD can do 24bit/192K D/A conversion at line level only.

I suspect but cannot confirm that this software limitation will be overcome in 2004. This however carries the ancillary concern that DSP requirements just doubled, by doubling fs. Whether they have the DSP horsepower for all of their calculations or not I don't know.

I do know that 861v4 has a quartet of Motorola 56367s for DSP, which is a termendous amount of power.

Regards,
 

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