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TV Shows that are unavailable to DVD due to music clearance BS (1 Viewer)

Neil Brock

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smithbrad said:
If memory serves, it was a process the studio's did at one point in the creation of the syndicated prints that they distributed. They knew exactly what they were doing at the time. The DVD's were produced from those syndicated prints by Image, an independent DVD distributor that licensed the rights, not a major studio.

Things can get a bit convoluted when it comes to independents and rights, and I don't know the state of things with regards to Combat!. There are probably film elements in a vault somewhere, but that doesn't mean that they were readily available to Image, or that it would have been cost effective for them to retransfer them. It's quite possible that this is all that was available from the source the rights were procured from.

Combat! isn't the only release timesped. The fact that they clock in at around 47 minutes each instead of 50 minutes is always the first indicator of cuts or being timesped. I knew about it before I purchased based on information here on the forum.

As for fixing it, I'm not sure you can using the timesped prints. It's one thing to remove something to speed it up but another to try to add something back that is no longer there. You basically have to go back to the original film elements. Usually it is the audio that gets most people and that can be fixed using a pitch conversion (that's what I understand they do with movies converted to PAL), but that is yet another added expense.

So whether Image knew from the get go that they had timesped prints is hard to say, but in the end there really isn't a whole lot they could do about it at the time. They don't have the budget to easily go back to original film elements. They eventually did with Twilight Zone and Dick Van Dyke but only after releasing on DVD in lesser quality first. They released Combat! a few times on DVD now so maybe they are looking to upgrade to the film elements in the future for a better release. This is the way it goes with independents sometimes when a major studio doesn't do it themselves or isn't even in the picture. Independents sometimes have to build up equity through releases to fund additional remastering work. Sound familiar.

Of course we could have just hoped for someone bigger to pick it up and try and do it right from the beginning. And we might still be waiting if that was the case. But you have plenty on your shelves so it wouldn't have made a difference to you.
Exactly right. They remove frames from the picture when the tape transfer is done. You can't just run the tape slower, you have to put the missing frames back in and that can only be done with a re-transfer from film. Image did go back to the film elements for the 5th and final season, which unfotunately is the weakest of the series.

Time speeding has evolved where now it can be done by the station itself. For instance, ME-TV runs Dobie Gillis and Phil Silvers Show sped-up. They have complete episodes but they speed it up themselves by running the tapes faster. The dialogue speed makes this blatantly obvious as they are trying to pick up 3 minutes on a half hour show and that requires a lot of speeding up.
 

jimmyjet

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neil, PUHLEEZE !!

hi brad,

thanks for the info. if i am understanding, at least in this particular process of time speeding, they actually removed frames ?

if so, i do not think that the phrase is particularly accurate.

i just thought they were showing all the film a bit faster than it was filmed ?

but not fast enough for me to be able to discern any difference.
 

jimmyjet

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Neil Brock said:
Time compression/speed-up and Lexiconing, as it was originally called when Lexington Broadcast System started the process, has been around for about 30 years or so. I'm not sure how anyone could claim to know anything about television and not know about this. To me, that speaks volumes and anyone who would state that they never heard of this? Well, to me that tells me all I need to know.
neil,

i appreciate the knowledge that you have, and the information that you share with us.

however, when you get snooty and arrogant, i will give you a swift kick in the behind, as well.

i have never said, stated, inferred, or given any other such notion that i had any particular technical knowledge about film or television.
 

Gary OS

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Neil Brock said:
Time speeding has evolved where now it can be done by the station itself. For instance, ME-TV runs Dobie Gillis and Phil Silvers Show sped-up. They have complete episodes but they speed it up themselves by running the tapes faster. The dialogue speed makes this blatantly obvious as they are trying to pick up 3 minutes on a half hour show and that requires a lot of speeding up.
They've done this with Perry Mason as well. I don't get ME-TV at my house (Direct TV subscriber) but my parents do and the other night while I was visiting we came upon a PM episode and the time-compression was horrible. Sometimes the "Chipmunk" analogy as pure hyperbole, but in this case I can honestly say that Paul Drake sounded like Alvin. It was that bad.


Gary "if I know a particular show well then time-compression can bother me some, but most of the time it's not an issue" O.
 

jimmyjet

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since i havent seen the "original" combat, i am happy for the moment to accept the statement of a knowledgeable person that i probably would not see the difference.

it does surprise me though, that they could remove 3 minutes of frames without causing a noticeable to difference to the typical viewer.

i guess it most certainly does cause a difference if they simply just speed the tape up, which is what i thought was occurring.
 

jimmyjet

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hi brad,

i would like to see someone re-do combat, though.

not that i think they will.

mainly, cuz i dont want the final copy to be altered.

too many times "altered" from the original at some point can cause problems.

at least at this point, we still have the originals. but they wont last forever in film form.

i think this stuff can serve as entertainment for centuries to come.

BUT ONLY IF IT STILL EXISTS.
 

smithbrad

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jimmyjet said:
hi brad,

i would like to see someone re-do combat, though.

not that i think they will.

mainly, cuz i dont want the final copy to be altered.

too many times "altered" from the original at some point can cause problems.

at least at this point, we still have the originals. but they wont last forever in film form.

i think this stuff can serve as entertainment for centuries to come.

BUT ONLY IF IT STILL EXISTS.
Image has the rights, so it is possible they could redo it, at some point. But, like Twilight Zone it will depend on a few things, cost to transfer and access to the film elements, potential revenue to be generated in a better release, and the budget they can set aside based on previous revenue earned.

The variables involved in a release that impacts the quality of the release are numerous. Taking into consideration the budget and resource differences between a big studio and an independent, who actually owns the rights and who has access to the film elements, whether the show has been in syndication and whether that was after studio's started transferring to video elements, if 16mm prints are available and in what kind of shape, are unedited prints available, is it a studio willing to license and at what cost, and on and on.

This is why a one formula approach does not work. The big studio's have the most potential for putting out the highest quality releases, but that's not their primary focus. CBS and WB are doing a pretty good job (albeit slowly), but what about the other studio's? If not for the independents we wouldn't have nearly the number of releases we have now, but they have limits as well. They can't absorbs the misfires like a studio so they have to balance the risks involved, and that sometimes means lesser quality releases. I provide additional slack here because I don't want to wait 20 years for a studio to dig this low into there catalog. But if one's focus is more recent titles or big names titles they have less to worry about.

And this is coming from someone who has just picked up a few tidbits of knowledge here and there from this forum. That means that there is probably a bunch more politics and issues below the surface view I have presented.
 

The Obsolete Man

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Gary OS said:
They've done this with Perry Mason as well. I don't get ME-TV at my house (Direct TV subscriber) but my parents do and the other night while I was visiting we came upon a PM episode and the time-compression was horrible. Sometimes the "Chipmunk" analogy as pure hyperbole, but in this case I can honestly say that Paul Drake sounded like Alvin. It was that bad.


Gary "if I know a particular show well then time-compression can bother me some, but most of the time it's not an issue" O.
Have you seen Green Acres on Antenna TV?

The theme song is a dead giveaway that the show is time compressed. It doesn't hit me as much during the body of the show, but the theme song is just too fast.
 

Gary OS

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The Obsolete Man said:
Have you seen Green Acres on Antenna TV?

The theme song is a dead giveaway that the show is time compressed. It doesn't hit me as much during the body of the show, but the theme song is just too fast.
The theme songs are definitely where it's going to be most obvious, for sure. I've noticed the general time-sped issue most often in the opening themes.


Gary "no use complaining though - that horse has been out of the barn for a long time now" O.
 

jimmyjet

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hi brad,

i now understand that the larger the mm, the more information that it can contain, correct ?

so 70 mm has more info than 35, which has more than 16 ?

recently, you guys have been referring to 16mm originals. but quite often i also hear about 35 mm originals.

is there some sort of way of "knowing" what film the original was shot in ?

like in these years, they used such and such. or these studios did such and such.

or is just completely random ?
 

smithbrad

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jimmyjet said:
hi brad,

i now understand that the larger the mm, the more information that it can contain, correct ?

so 70 mm has more info than 35, which has more than 16 ?

recently, you guys have been referring to 16mm originals. but quite often i also hear about 35 mm originals.

is there some sort of way of "knowing" what film the original was shot in ?

like in these years, they used such and such. or these studios did such and such.

or is just completely random ?
I will provide my basic understanding, so most films of the past were probably shot 35mm with some of the bigger budget spectacles in 70mm. TV followed suit in the beginning with 35mm, which is why many shows from the 50's and 60's can do better with Blu-ray releases than many taped shows later in the 70's and 80's since 35mm film supports an HD resolution where much that was taped was standard definition.

In the early days, shows were duplicated to 16mm for syndication. So studios actually sent out 16mm copies to stations to use for broadcast. The stations might chop it up as needed to fit in commercials. At some point, studio's started transferring to tapes for syndication use. These could contain breaks all set for where commercials could be placed. Many of the old 16mm prints were thrown away and made there way into collectors hands.

So one of the important factors about some shows is when they were last syndicated. Did they make it far enough for tape masters to exist. If not, can old 16mm film elements be found. Otherwise, one has to go back to the vaults to find the original 35mm elements. These are expensive to transfer and not always conducive to a release for lesser know titles. In some case, a studio may have the film elements but someone else involved has distribution rights. Some of these independents gets their licensing from these other sources and what prints they have available.

Others I'm sure can detail the dates involved and the technical terminology of the tape process, and such. Mine is just a basic understanding.
 

jimmyjet

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thanks brad,

so are most of the blu-ray releases using the original 35 mm ?

or are they starting with the 16mm stuff ?
 

smithbrad

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jimmyjet said:
thanks brad,

so are most of the blu-ray releases using the original 35 mm ?

or are they starting with the 16mm stuff ?
If it's a legit approach to going HD then they are going from the 35mm elements. That's what CBS has been doing for most of their back catalog. That what makes it so slow at times with them because they only seem to dedicate but so many resources. They are transferring the bulk of their shows to a high definition format for future syndication and potential blu-rays releases (that they are now just starting to take advantage this Spring). These HD transfers are be downgraded to SD DVD releases that look better than most (even down-converted) because the quality of the source.

However, there are some that fall into a different category. there are a few things that were shot in 16mm, which can still look pretty good if the source has been maintained (e.g. Pride and Prejudice BBC miniseries).
 

smithbrad

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So if you want the absolute best quality get ready to double dip on your CBS releases. It is just staring with I Love Lucy, Andy Griffith Show, and the Honeymooners. If all sells well you can plan on seeing The Fugitive, Gunsmoke, Perry Mason, etc...etc... in Blu-ray down the road.

CBS has already done the expensive part of transferring into an HD format, so distributing on HD is a piece of cake now if the market wants it. Of course Star Trek is a bit of an exception because they are redoing all the special effect in HD as well, which is costly.
 

smithbrad

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What's nice about the CBS Syndication Bible you have probably heard about is that it gives a look into what has been and is currently being transferred to HD, which tends to be a sign of what might be coming out next on DVD.
 

smithbrad

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Jimmie, on a side note, the issue with Amazon reviews sometimes:

I had a discussion with a gentleman about the latest Peter Gunn release from timeless in the comments area. He had kept commenting that Timeless messed up because they removed the "interludes" that existed as part of the commercial breaks. Apparently, a few had been left in the older lower quality previous release by A&E.

I tried to tell him Timeless wouldn't take these out, but that they must not have been in what they received. He couldn't understand this. So I did some research and found out that a company did a similar quality release of the first two seasons in the UK (I know I have them) that also did not include interludes. Whether they had the original film elements themselves or not I am unsure. Season three never came out from the UK, but that company was purchased by another firm in California. This is the company that Timeless licensed and received the prints from.

So while the A&E prints that were lower quality did include a few of these interludes, it is because it was part of the old video prints they had on hand. However, Timeless received their prints from a firm that bought a firm that released DVD's in the UK, etc...etc... It's hard to say where the original elements came from and what happened to the interludes, but it just goes to show how some of this all works with the independents, and what they can and cannot do for a release.
 

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