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True 5:5 pulldown or 24fps with out added frames

Discussion in 'Playback Devices' started by Douglas Monce, Dec 15, 2009.

  1. Douglas Monce

    Douglas Monce Well-Known Member

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    I did a search, and I can only find threads on this subject that are about 2 years old. Does anyone know if there are yet any HDTVs that will display 5:5 pull down with out adding fake frames between the 24 frames of a theatrical film?

    I can't seem to find any that don't do some kind of "motion smoothing" effect. There is nothing worse than a film shot at 24fps, looking like the evening news! I'd rather have a little 2:3 pull down judder than that.

    Thanks
    Doug
     
  2. Brian McHale

    Brian McHale Well-Known Member

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    I haven't researched this topic in over a year, but I think you're better off looking over at AVS Forum for this kind of information. It's worth pointing out that 5:5 pulldown would only apply to 120 Hz refresh sets. There are other rates that result in other pulldown ratios (for instance, there are plasma sets that do 3:3 or 4:4 pulldown and there are probably new LCD 240 Hz sets that do 10:10 pulldown).

    Here a link to the main forum index page:

    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/index.php
     
  3. Brian L

    Brian L Well-Known Member

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    Doug,

    The current HT magazine has a reader's question asking if Frame Interpolation can be turned off, and the reply from Thomas Norton is that all sets that he is aware of allow this to be turned off. I have no first hand knowledge if this is correct on 100% of the sets, but that was his reply.

    Having recently seen for the 1st time with my own eyes the oft reported effect of film looking like video, I too am very interested in this subject. I happened to be looking around in one or our local shops, and they were playing Transformers 2 on a new Samsung LCD set. I thought surely they were playing some outtakes or a "making of" segments shot on video. It is not at all subtle.

    Brian
     
  4. Douglas Monce

    Douglas Monce Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the information guys. I have had the chance to fiddle with a Toshiba 120hz LCD tv. And while you can lower the effect of the motion smoothing feature (it has a low, medium and high setting), you can't fully turn it off. I haven't been able to find definitive information on other brands in this regard.

    Doug
     
  5. Blu4ever

    Blu4ever Member

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    Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
     
  6. Todd H

    Todd H Go Dawgs!

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    My 52XBR4 does true 5:5 pulldown, which is a good thing because I can't stand frame interpolation. My guess would be that the newer versions of this set should as well.
     
  7. Douglas Monce

    Douglas Monce Well-Known Member

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    Okay almost a year later and I'm still trying to find a list of TVs that do 5:5 pulldown. So far Toshiba is the only one that advertises 5:5 pulldown on some of their models. Anyone have any more info?


    Doug
     
  8. Douglas Monce

    Douglas Monce Well-Known Member

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    Wow has HTF died or what?
     
  9. Zack Gibbs

    Zack Gibbs Well-Known Member

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    Strange, I came across this thread a few weeks ago for some reason. I was going to reply but noticed it was an old thread. I wonder what I was doing...


    Anyways, as far as I know virtually all televisions that feature frame interpolation allow you to turn it off.* And this is only a feature of LCD sets as well, so you could always get a plasma screen, they're better anyways.


    *I know you said there was a Toshiba set where you couldn't do this, and don't mean to be rude. It's just more likely the setting was buried somewhere or misleading. I know Toshiba sets aren't consistent in terms of their options menus.
     
  10. Douglas Monce

    Douglas Monce Well-Known Member

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    Yes you can turn off the frame interpolation, but many 120hz sets, still do 3:2 pull down in spite of the fact that they could be doing true 24fps with 5:5 pull down. At this point Toshiba is the only manufacturer that has sets (yes not all) that are specifically identified as doing 5:5 pull down. I'm not interested in a Plasma unless it does 5:5.


    I even asked a Samsung rep who was in a Best Buy, and he didn't know what 5:5 pull down was! I'm ready to buy a new set, but until I can find more info about who offers this feature, I'm holding off.


    Doug
     
  11. Zack Gibbs

    Zack Gibbs Well-Known Member

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    The description '5:5 pull down' just isn't very apt in a marketing/sales world, so that's probably why you don't see it very much. My plasma set plays 24p at 96hz (4:4), some do it at 48hz, or 72hz. It can differ not only between manufacturers, but a single line's models.


    LCD's run higher refreshes to deal with ghosting, this isn't an issue with plasma screens. Some LCD sets are 240hz, and I've read that they're going to 480hz. I've seen 240hz sets list their 24p playback as 2:2.
     
  12. Douglas Monce

    Douglas Monce Well-Known Member

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    96hz? I'm guessing you’re not in the U.S.?


    Yes 120hz was put in place at the start to help with the lag issue that some LCD TVs exhibited. Frankly I couldn't care less about that, I'm only interested in a TV that will do real 5:5 pull down to eliminate the judder that comes from 3:2 pulldown. Frankly I don't really care if I get an LCD or a plasma TV, as long as it does 5:5 pulldown.


    Doug
     
  13. Brian McHale

    Brian McHale Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't get hung up on "5:5 pulldown", since plasma sets usually don't do exactly that. I know, for instance, that Panasonic plasma sets do either 2:2 (48 Hz) or 4:4 (96 Hz). A lot of people feel the flicker from 2:2 is a showstopper, but I understand that the 4:4 is quite nice.
     
  14. Todd Erwin

    Todd Erwin Well-Known Member
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    I've been complaining about this issue in Best Buy and Fry's Electronics for some time, and all I ever get is a dumbfounded look and the response "that's the way it's supposed to look, sir" from the sales staff.


    The best thing to do is plead with the sales guy to let you play around with the settings on both the TV and connected Blu-ray player until you find a set that works for you.
     
  15. Zack Gibbs

    Zack Gibbs Well-Known Member

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    I'm in the US. You've got to let this '5:5' pulldown idea go or you're not going to get anywhere. A set doesn't have to pentuple frames to get true 24p playback.
     
  16. Stephen_J_H

    Stephen_J_H All Things Film Junkie
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    My Toshi 40" does true 24p playback @ 48Hz, and the judder or motion lag is something I've become accustomed to from the days when I was running projection part-time @ a Cineplex. I really don't think 5:5 pulldown can do much to eliminate that, @ least from what I've seen from 120Hz sets so far.
     
  17. KMR

    KMR Well-Known Member

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    Panasonic plasmas use 96hz processing to eliminate pulldown judder in 24p source material. They might be the only ones, though; I'm not sure.
     
  18. KMR

    KMR Well-Known Member

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    I think by "judder" you're really referring to motion strobing. "Judder" usually refers to the jerky cadence that 3:2 pulldown introduces into 24p source material. I am very pleased with the way this judder is eliminated when playing back 24p material at 96Hz vs. 60Hz on my Panasonic plasma.
     
  19. Brian McHale

    Brian McHale Well-Known Member

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    Only the higher end Panasonic plasma sets use 96 Hz. The very popular mid-range G20/25 series uses 48 Hz, which is (apparently) not nearly as satisfactory. It gets rid of the judder, but introduces flickering that many people find objectionable. The higher end sets that do 96 Hz get much better reviews.
     

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