Tom & Jerry: Spotlight Collection announced (1 Viewer)

[Mark Anthony]

Over on cartoon research again(!) it has been remarked by those that are knowledgeable, although not confirmed, that the dvd transfers were done back in 2000, when the films were restored from the best available elements for all formats - dvd, vhs and broadcast - so the non-scope 'toon's are the same masters as broadcast on cartoon network since then (obviously certain masters are cut and some are uncut).

Whether these were film restorations, video restorations, film restorations and transferred to hi-def, or film restored and transferred in standard-def I don't know....but as they were designed for all formats the coloured windowboxing is there so it would look ok on broadcast tv.

If these were film restored and only transferred in standard def, it's a shame that new hi-def transfers couldn't have been done (as no additional digital clean up has taken place at either stage) as the advances in transfer technology over the past few years, particularly on older titles, are astounding.

Again I've not seen the set and i'm sure they look better than ever, but perhaps with a little more effort and money - which will certainly be recouperated given the apparent popularity of this set - they could have looked, in certain cases, almost as good as the outstandingly transferred Looney Tunes.

M

 

[John Whittle]

I went back and read those posts and it seems the "expert" based his information on "intuition" and no direct evidence.

He also has no idea how cartoons were photographed in Technicolor, what elements were created and even when items like interpositive and internegatives came into existence. (FWIW Technicolor IB prints are not a good source for telecine since the contrast is so high, interpositives are best and negatives second best.)

I'd be careful in putting much stock in the technical expertise expressed there. Personally I've spent over 30 years in the Hollywood in the motion picture industry in production and post production, 30 years in SMPTE and a member of the DGA. I now how Technicolor worked, several people that worked there and had long conversations with several high ranking technical people.

That being said, I'm still waiting for my set to arrive. I do know that if I were mastering this set (and I have mastered some titles) that it wuold be easy to exactly match the window frame on the titles to the background color and even match the dissolve when the background color changes. That leads me to believe that the title fixes were done much earlier and most likely on film where the match would be more difficult and the dissolve costly.

Back in the 70s, all the MGM work at Metrocolor was done after outside work (with the exception of current TV and Feature release). I had a couple of tv series done at Metrocolor back then along with a feature.

John

 

[rob kilbride]

I wish Disney had done anything about its censored cartoons. Clock Cleaners was edited because Walmart claimed Donald said "F--- You" to the coil when he actually said "Says who?"
And I would like to see the original "Three Little Pigs" complete with the original "Jewish pedlar" scene. Even though Walt himself did the censoring it is still censored. Anyway Disney put back the playing music on the sows nipples scene back in which I have read was removed by Walt because he later thought it was in bad taste. I also have read that the original Skeleton Dance was silent through the titles surprising the audience who would have thought it was silent with a thunderclap. I hope corrected versions of these shorts may end up on disk someday.

 

[John Whittle]

That edit has been in the sound track for decades. In fact I'm pretty sure it was in the 16mm Technicolor IB prints back in the 1960s. It's certainly in my beta tape copy recorded off the Disney Channel in either very late 1970s or early 1980s.

Never heard the Wal-Mart story before, but I've never been one to get in the way of a good story if it fits the facts.

I don't know when the 3 Pigs was edited, but perhaps someone with access to the Disney vault records can tell us.

John

 

[rob kilbride]

I'm pretty sure its not a story because I saw it one the news. A video was pulled from Walmart because of the scene and it was later censored and I'm pretty sure I recorded the original uncut version on the Disney Channel but I'd have to look. According to this thread at the Big Cartoon Database the uncensored Three Little Pigs has been released in Europe.http://forum.bcdb.com/gforum.cgi?post=19859;search_string=jewish%20disne y;#19859

 

[Jay Pennington]

I haven't watched my DVD set yet either, but up to now, at least, the color borders for TV and home video releases were done in the video realm. They first started popping up when Turner made new video masters of some titles for home video release in the late '80s. Those masters started trickling into the televised versions over subsequent years. (Same thing for Turner-owned Looney Tunes at the time, although most/all have been supplanted since then.)

There was some attempt at color-matching the borders to the title backgrounds, but since those BGs often have a gradient, the color matched only part of the frame. Black would've been better. Moreover, the windowboxing was extreme, reducing the film frame to the "safe title" area or even further--"safe image" area would've been plenty.

I'm not saying the current TV masters date from the '80s, necessarily, but the same approach for windowboxing has consistently appeared on TV since. (Again, I haven't watched the DVDs yet so I can't comment on those.)

Still, the effort to make the titles readable is appreciated--I just wish they'd shrink them less, use black borders, and windowbox the entire cartoons!

 

[Charlie O.]

Since were on the topic of overscan, do newer TVs over come this problem.

 

[Dan Rudolph]

Newer TVs tend be adjustable. Just do a google search for "service menu" and the model number of your TV.

 

[Colby]

I started watching the first disc. The windowbox sizes vary for each cartoon. Some aren't much thicker than overscan range, others are fairly big. And some don't have them at all.

I really don't mind them. It's better than having to watch "om & Jerr".

 

[GregK]

Almost all standard CRT displays have some amount of overscan, which can vary from model to model and can even change a little with age. However the newer digital display devices (LCD and DLP) have a tight alignment that shouldn't drift and are typically set to underscan only a few lines. My projector is set for underscan, but I do have an overscan setting for those occasions where it's needed. And with souces such as VHS, LD, or cable TV, it's needed quite often. Some would be surprised at the various bits of crap that be found at the extreme edges of a video image.

 

[Jay Pennington]

Yes, you do want a little overscan. Otherwise you see vertical blanking intervals (thin blinking black and white lines) and stuff at the extreme edges that were never meant to be seen. I edit video and sometimes when adding graphics or incorporating video from different format sources, the extreme edges, if seen, would reveal variations in whether the video image goes all the way to the edge, whether there's a little bit of black, where a graphic might not go all the way to the edge, etc.

This is why when mastering a film originally shot for theatrical presentation, it's important to shrink it just a tad so that film frame image area doesn't fall off the edge of your TV. And this is usually done to a very small degree, but you'd need an "underscan" feature on your monitor to notice the outer black border.

DVD screencappers would be able to testify to this--grab a shot, then blow it up and look at the edges.

 

[Duncan Reno]

Another botched DVD release!
Another replacement program!
Another leave the incorrect DVD's on store shelves!

If no one complains it isn't broken.
We'll just correct and replace the ones for the few "whiners"

I can't believe everyone is so okay with what is becoming and industry standard.
Don't criticize the studios too harshly or you'll get bitch slapped.

If a product is on stores shelves I expect it to be correct and free from defects.
I SHOULD NOT have to contact the studio to have them replace something right out of the box.

If a studio is all that great they would have made sure the product was correct before it hit the shelves.
They should not be praised for putting out a faulty product and then having a quick turnaround time for correcting it.

I used to use this forum as a guide on what dvd's to buy. Now I use this forum to find out what dvd's to avoid.

 

[TedD]

Agreed! Because then I could zoom to a consistent size, eliminate the borders and have a real shot at having it look like it originally did on the screen in the theatre.

Note that the cartoons without the borders were aparently the only ones that were actually remastered for this set, contrary to the studio's claims.

Ted

 

[Mark Anthony]

Re: the remastering, where did you get that information from Ted? How many toon's does this apply to?

M

 

[Mark Anthony]

I just watched the first 20 cartoons and am very pleased with the sharpness and colour evident, especially considering we're talking about 50-60 yr old toon's, that have changed hands numerous times and master materials on most are misssing, however...



...what is extremely disappointing is the amount of dust, scratches and general wear marks that are evident, which to be honest are really distracting, due to there frequency and the size of some of them.



These sort of mark's are exactly what automated digital clean-up was invented for, so it's a shame a bit more money wasn't spent on this - as if a good percentage of these marks were removed, all the toon's would look great.



Maybe on the future blu-ray/hd-dvd editions they will take these masters and clean them up a little more, here's hoping...



M

 

[John Whittle]

quote:very pleased with the sharpness and colour evident, especially considering we're talking about 50-60 yr old toon's, that have changed hands numerous times and master materials on most are misssing, however...

Not sure what you mean by "master materials ... are missing" since that's not a film term that's used to describe film elements.



Technicolor cartoons in the 3 color process (with the exception of Flowers & Trees by Disney that was shot with a 3-strip camera) were photographed on a regular animation stand with a regular Acme camera (or Oxberry) with Pan Negative black and white film and a rotating color wheel. Each cell was photographed three times, once thru the red, green and blue filters. This negative was then used by Technicolor to make up the correct matrix materials (and fine grain protection) that were skip printed to yield the RGB (YCM) elements. These elements were never stored with the original negatives so those negtives that were lost in the Eastman House Fire didn't involve the production elements.



It would have been possible (any maybe in the LT/MM restorations they did this) to take the sequential negative and electronically make up a digital master.



However over the years we have been more likely to see prints from internegatives which were make from 35mm Nitrate Technicolor prints. These are not ideal in that the contrast ratio is too high and shadows block up.



Also most cartoons of the era show cell marks, dust, reflections and other defects that were part of the original photography. Disney and Kodak went to great lengths to fix those problem during the first restoration of "Snow White" (that was for the theatrical re-issue not the more recent DVD).



If you've ever sat in a telecine suite and watched the "results" of a DNVR system, you'd know they create their own set of problems and are a far from ideal solution. The Kodak/Disney team when to great length to clean the film on a frame by frame basis when they discovered that the DNVR was removing wanted picture elements.



Dealing with old film elements (be they fine grains, interpositive, or original negatives) they all have problems. I was truly impressed with the work on the Cinemascope transfers--I haven't put in disc one yet. But these are all far better than anything I've seen in the last 20 years and probably exceed the original Technicolor release prints (cartoons--with the exception of Disney--always seemed to get the short end of the deal at Technicolor since they were used to fill out production schedules.)



John

 

[Mark Anthony]

"Not sure what you mean by "master materials ... are missing" since that's not a film term that's used to describe film elements."



What I mean, as per comments on this and other forums by other members that seem to be far more knowledgeable than me on such matter's, is that the toon's dating up to 1952 have no original elements surviving that are usable - so the best quality surviving elements have been used instead. (The specifics of which I don't know, as I've said before, and have been trying to find out...)



If the sequential negatives or any other better quality original elements survived, I would imagine they would have used them for the archival year 2000 T&J restoration project as Warner seems to be pretty much the best studio, along with Criterion, for digging out the best available elements and using them - they even introduced the ultra resolution process, which is doing exactly what you describe for the 3-strip toon's and have restored from original camera neg's the Looney Tunes.



Disc 1 of the set is plagued with marks, scratches and general wear and tear which digital dust busting, not noise and grain reduction, software is designed to remove by comparing before and after frames. You will see this when you watch that disc John. I have an 82" screen, and they become even clearer! All though the problems of automated software obviously exist, the 12 or so years in advances in technology since the original Digital Snow White restoration have minimised them and also reduced the cost significantly. Even Lowry Digital who some would argue is one of the best at doing this kind of work, uses automated software to remove a good portion of marks - I'm not asking for them to be as pristine as Star Wars, just look a bit cleaner than they do.



The scope toon's do look great and do look as if some kind of digital clean up has taken place, I also never had any quarms against these title's quality, they never were the issue.



BTW, someone mentioned that Touche Pussycat is in 5.1 - it is infact in Stereo (Dolby Surround compatible) but sounds great none-the-less.



M

 

[Jay Pennington]

I have yet to notice any marks, scratches or wear-and-tear on the prints in Looney Tunes Vol. 1.



There is a plethora of cel dust, but that's part of the photographed image and was rightly left alone.

 

[Mark Anthony]

That's because i'm talking about Tom and Jerry Spotlight Collection Disc 1, not Looney Tunes!



The LT's look pristine in comparison and your right no additional work is needed on them.



M

 

[Jay Pennington]

Sorry. I was confused by the last two words of the preceding paragraph ("Looney Tunes"), thinking that was still the subject.